Kashmir Truth Be Told Blog
Yus neereth gassan, pheereth cha yevaano: morda che gassan zinde (Kashmiri saying)

2/23/10

One year since Indian Occupation Forces murdered Javid and Amin

On the right column of this blog, there is a topic highlighted in red. Read that. The post was made exactly a year back on Feb 23, 2009, in response to the murder of Javid and Amin of Sopur by the Indian Occupation Army.

The puppet CM, Omar Abdullah, had promised "exemplary punishment" within fifteen days for the Indian slumdogs involved--just as he has done so in all subsequent murders by the Occupation forces since then.

After hearing the news that day, I was so incensed by the hypocrisy and spin that we have come to expect from successive puppet regimes that I decided to call their bluff and started counting down the days within which they said they would apprehend the culprits. A year has passed since, and to no one's surprise, absolutely nothing happened.

Now we know what became of that investigation. The murderers are still free even though their own departmental investigation deemed them guilty. What a pathetic excuse of a country India is.

To mark the one year aniversary, people in Sopur peacefully protested and demanded that the murderers be punished--as though a peaceful protest has any bearings on a military occupation.
[Read about how the people of Sopur marked the one year anniversary of the murders]

There have been tens of thousands of similar murders by the Indian Occupation forces in Kashmir, and not a single soldier has been punished. This is a fact: not a single Indian soldier has ever been punished in Kashmir.

To put this claim in perspective, many US soldiers in Iraq were convicted and jailed for similar crimes comitted against Iraqis. Atleast one faces the death penalty. That is the difference between a real democracy and respect for the rule of law, and a fascist, farcical, pathetic excuse of a country like India.

114 comments:

  1. I was exactly recalling the events of last feb and it came to me as no surprise that the oppression plan of 2010 of Slum Dog armed forces started with the cold blooded murder of two small kids of Kashmiri Muslims like it was last year.

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  2. Dr. Waleed. Indeed.
    Read the latest news about warning by Omar Abdullah to Kashmiri youth. He has given orders to police and CRPF to spy on and keep full records of all Kashmiri youth. Thus the true face of the fascist dictator finally emerges.

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  3. Dream I had last night, to my amazement what I say “Press Conference” at the Press Lane in Srinagar with full media glare. I could only see someone simply wearing a traditional “Kashmiri Pheran” and Karakulu (Long gown & Hat). It was “Chilliakalam” (harsh winter days) mist, fog and poor visibility, I could hardly see the face of a person who was the attention of everyone. All cameras were catching these historical moments. All I could hear he was emphasizing with enthusiasm, energy and strength and his great sincerity “I am not a puppet anymore”, I am reborn free. Gone are those dark days, neither I will represent Delhi in Kashmir nor I will be called a traitor and the man-eaters son. I will clean and wipe the every slur and infidelity my family committed to this Nation.

    Soon he was addressing himself I, I…. It trembled me, striking my never and spine. I could not believe it, I felt like dreaming, I managed to cherish these moments. I don’t want to be awaken, I told myself let it be a dream, sweet dream.

    I, Omar Abdullah CM of J&K am submitting his resignation with immediate effect along with all the conscience-keeping members of the house in Unison and irrespective of our political affiliations. After hearing these words the fog in the weather broke out everything seems to be visible now.

    Having said that the news went to air shocked both New Delhi and Islamabad. People from Srinagar to Baramulla, Islamabad to Kupwara. In other words Kashmir to Kishtwar spread like wild fire.

    Oceans of people far and across irrespective of their political belief and ideology thronged into streets. Ragda 2008 would be jealous to see record-breaking noumber of people.

    Omar Abdullah picked the thread where his grandpa left, addressed the public in historical Lal Chowk, Plebiscite Front of 1970’s was revived. Omar could be seen leading the large crowd of public. Only one slogan can be heard, people were chanting we want “Plebiscite – Azadi” marching through Sheri-e-Khas, he arrived Eid Gah where he paid rich tributes to “Martyrs of Kashmir” and took oath from the sacred blood of theirs and finally laid down a foundation stone of “Minar-e-Kashmir” which in coming days will become historical site where every year Kashmir will be observing “Freedom Day – Independent Kashmir”.

    Wakeup Bra! There seems to be a stumbling block, the joy, I was getting in dreams was not real. The Press Conference I saw was only a dream a broken dream.

    Can Omar Abdullah rise to the occasion and turn this dream of millions into reality. Does she have guts? Time will only tell? I am still optimistic. Let us live with dreams, as they say dreams come true.

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  4. @Jhiya

    I know he will support the freedom movement, but like a politician, he will support it one day before independence, when his support or opposition will be of little consequence.

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  5. Yousuf, I request you to not reject any comments. I had given a comment providing instances where army personnel including a lot of officers were punished/suspended/arrested by the Indian court/Authority for human rights violation in Kashmir.

    Let the readers decide what is true and what is not. However If I am self critical, I aggree that there are few cases which go without the guilty being punished. That is because of lack of evidence as Indian law states that even if 100 criminals go Scot free, 1 innocent should not be punished. India also undertakes regular sensitivity training for its army men with regard to Human rights violation and has a high profile committee to look into the situation.

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  6. @Subbaiah

    I will not allow my blog to link to Indian army sites.

    Remove links to the Indian army, and your post was fine.

    I stand by my claim that not a single Indian army personnel or for that matter any occupation force member has ever been punished. Slap on the wrist for mass murders is not considered punishment.

    The above case of Amin and Javid being a perfect example. Explain that, and your attempted spin would have a scintilla of credibilty.

    Google human rights violations in Kashmir, for a plethora of similar cases. Read about others that I mentioned between Feb 23 and Mar 11, 2009, on this blog.

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  7. My friends...what follows is JL Nehru's statements on Kashmir which the Indian slum dogs in their glorious way will refute at all levels:

    1)“That Government of India and Pakistan should make a joint request to U.N.O. to undertake a plebiscite in Kashmir at the earliest possible date.”JAWAHARLAL NEHRU (In telegram No. Primin-304 dated 8 November 1947 addressed to Prime Minister of Pakistan).
    2)“Ultimately, the final decision of settlement, which must come, has first of all to be made basically by the people of Kashmir…….”JAWAHARLAL NEHRU Statement at Press Conference in London, 16 January 1951, The Statesman, 18 January 1951).
    3)“But so far as the Government of India are concerned, every assurance and international commitment in regard to Kashmir stands.”JAWAHARLAL NEHRU (Statement in the Indian Council of States; 18 May 1954).
    4)“If, after a proper plebiscite, the people of Kashmir said, ‘We do not want to be with India’, we are committed to accept that. We will accept it though it might pain us. We will not send any army against them. We will accept that, however hurt we might feel about it, we will change the Constitution, if necessary.”JAWAHARLAL NEHRU (Statement in the Indian Parliament, 26 June 1952).
    5)“Our view which we have repeatedly made public is that the question of accession in any disputed territory or State must be decided in accordance with wishes of people and we adhere to this view.”JAWAHARLAL NEHRU, (in telegram No. 402-Primin-2227 dated 27 October 1947 to Prime Minister of Pakistan repeating telegram addressed to Prime Minister of United Kingdom).
    6)“In regard to accession also, it has been made clear that this is subject to reference to people of State and their decision.”JAWAHARLAL NEHRU, (in telegram No.413 dated 28 October 1947 addressed to Prime Minister of Pakistan).

    7)“ …….the people of Kashmir would decide the question of accession. It is open to them to accede to either Dominion then.” JAWAHARLAL NEHRU, (in telegram No.255 dated 31 October 1947 addressed to Prime Minister of Pakistan).

    8)“Kashmir should decide question of accession by plebiscite or referendum under international auspices such as those of the United Nations.” JAWAHARLAL NEHRU, (Letter No. 368-Primin dated 21 November 1947 to Prime Minister of Pakistan).

    9)“We are anxious not to finalize anything in a moment of crisis and without the fullest opportunity to be given to the people of Kashmir to have their say. It is for them ultimately to decide.

    “And let me make it clear that it has been our policy all along that where there is a dispute about the accession of a state to either Dominion, the accession must be made by the people of that state.” JAWAHARLAL NEHRU, (Broadcast to the Nation: “All India Radio”: 2 November 1947).

    “The issue in Kashmir is whether violence and naked force should decide the future or the will of the people.”JAWAHARLAL NEHRU, (Statement in Indian Constituent Assembly; 25 November 1947).

    9)“We have not opposed at any time an over-all plebiscite for the State as a whole…….”JAWAHARLAL NEHRU, (in telegram dated 16 August 1950 addressed to the U.N. Representative for India and Pakistan: S/1791 : Anne 1(B).

    10)“The most feasible method of ascertaining the wishes of the people was by fair and impartial plebiscite.”JAWAHARLAL NEHRU, (Joint press communique of the Prime Ministers of India and Pakistan issued in Delhi after their meeting on 20 August 1953).

    11) People seem to forget that Kashmir is not a commodity for sale or to be bartered. It has an individual existence and its people must be the final arbiters of their future.”JAWAHARLAL NEHRU, (Report to the All-India Congress Committee, 6 July 1951; The Statesman, New Delhi, 9 July 1951).

    12)“Kashmir is not a thing to be bandied about between India and Pakistan but it has a soul of its own and an individuality of its own. Nothing can be done without the goodwill and consent of the people of Kashmir.”JAWAHARLAL NEHRU, (Statement in the Indian Parliament, 31 March 1955).

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  8. 13) “We had given our pledge to the people of Kashmir, and subsequently to the United Nations; we stood by it and we stand by it today. Let the people of Kashmir decide.”JAWAHARLAL NEHRU, (Statement in the Indian Parliament, 12 February 1951).

    14)“We have taken the issue to the United Nations and given our word of honour for a peaceful solution. As a great nation, we cannot go back on it. We have left the question for final solution to the people of Kashmir and we are determined to abide by their decision.”JAWAHARLAL NEHRU (Amrita Bazar Patrika, Calcutta, 2 January 1952).

    15)“If, after a proper plebiscite, the people of Kashmir said, ‘We do not want to be with India’, we are committed to accept that. We will accept it though it might pain us. We will not send any army against them. We will accept that, however hurt we might feel about it, we will change the Constitution, if necessary.”JAWAHARLAL NEHRU (Statement in the Indian Parliament, 26 June 1952).

    16)“I want to stress that it is only the people of Kashmir who can decide the future of Kashmir. It is not that we have merely said that to the United Nations and to the people of Kashmir; it is our conviction and one that is borne out by the policy that we have pursued, not only in Kashmir but every where.“The whole dispute about Kashmir is still before the United Nations. We cannot just decide things concerning Kashmir. We cannot pass a bill or issue an order concerning Kashmir or do whatever we want.JAWAHARLAL NEHRU (The Statesman, 1 May 1953)

    17)“Ultimately, the final decision of settlement, which must come, has first of all to be made basically by the people of Kashmir…….”JAWAHARLAL NEHRU Statement at Press Conference in London, 16 January 1951, The Statesman, 18 January 1951).

    18)“But so far as the Government of India are concerned, every assurance and international commitment in regard to Kashmir stands.”JAWAHARLAL NEHRU (Statement in the Indian Council of States; 18 May 1954).


    WONDER WHAT BASE ARGUMENTS THE SLUM DOGS WILL BRING FORWARD NOW TO ANNEXE OUR MOTHER KASHMIR INTO THE HINDUTVA AKHAND BHARAT FOLD

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  9. GEORGE BUSH WAGED A WAR AGAINST IRAQ UNDER THE PRE-REQUISITE THAT IRAQ HAD WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION (Which it never had). HE KILLED CLOSE TO 1 million Iraqis in the process and eventually no weapons of mass destruction were found, He employed every trick in the book to change the mindset of the world community about why he was in Iraq.......The world community was never convinced.....cause he was fundamentally wrong...........Indians will try every trick in the book from media blackouts to blaming everything on ISI n Pakistan with respect to Kashmir.....FACT IS- INDIA has violated the basic fundamental right of a people to choose their destiny....n no matter what excuses n diversionary tactics INDIAN SLUM DOGGIES EMPLOY......they have been left with no other choice but to slowly change the demographics of Kashmir by settling Indians here. If Zardari leaves Kashmir to future generations......there will be nothing left to solve as Kashmiris will become inconsequential n INDIA in the next 25-50 years would welcome a plebiscite(N this would signify the end of both Pakistan n Kashmir peoples)

    Regards

    CHINAAR

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  10. We Kashmiris have seen enough farce of secularism and so called Slum Dog version of democracy in Kashmir.Slum Dogs cannot befool Kashmiri's anymore,They can never find another Sheikh Abdullah.Our generation has seen ourselves the real face of Slum Dogs and we will always oppose any moove which calls for reconcilation with Slum Dogs.Every self respecting Kashmiri has one message for Slum Dogs
    Indian Dogs GO BACK

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  11. @Chinnar,

    India wouldn't want a plebiscite even if it was sure about winning it. It would set a bad precedent and wouldn't fix anything on the ground that is not already fixed.

    If a plebiscite is given to Kashmir, then anyone and everyone who develops some kind of grievance in future will also demand a plebiscite.

    Similarly, if a violent insurgency is allowed to succeed, then anyone and everyone who develops some kind of grievance in future will also take the path of violence in future.

    Those who hate India should by all means insist and work towards our destruction. Otherwise, seek common ground, rather than insisting on things that are obviously not workable now or in foreseeable future.

    Best Wishes,

    - Anonymous three

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  12. @anonymous three

    Too bad the British and Soviets didn't follow a similar ideology--an ideology aptly called Indian fascism.

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  13. Justice, its just a seven lettered word in Kashmir. Kunanposhpora, Bomai, Sopore, Gaw-Kadal and hundred other places which became monuments of ghastly acts committed by DEMOCRATIC and SECULAR India. Inayat(16 year old), Wamiq(13 yrs), Zahid (16 yrs) proclaim India is a just country which respects Human rights, 45 years is their combined age and India has been a democracy for 60 years

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  14. Let us be realistic in the present circumstances growing Indian influence in South Asia and beyond, powerful growing economy and development in science and Technology, India’s stubborn attitude, shrewd political gimmicks and deadly imperialist policies over and above internal destabilisation in Pakistan and India’s growing influence in Afghanistan makes is clear that India want to concede more territory than to give up occupied territory in Kashmir.

    India is following the same nefarious designs as Ex Soviet Union and the end result of its disintegration is going to be same as Ex-Soviet Union States.

    In the present geo political scenario the Bad news is that Kashmiris might have to wait another decades to achieve the goal of freedom from India that I can assure you will be reality one day, which Kashmiris including Indians know very well.

    The Good news is that due to the decades of status-quo on the part of India and ever growing dissent among masses in Kashmir other states will rise with same demands of separation in the form of Maoists, Naxals and Nagas even Marathi Nationalism will lead to the disintegration of whole of India. Kashmir will be the first breakaway State. Disintegration of other states will follow as former Soviet Union. Sooner India realises it, is better for the unity of the rest of their country.

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  15. @Jhiya

    Very true and I also hold similar views on the inevitable breakup of India.

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  16. @Chinaar

    Thanks for those invaluable quotes.

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  17. @Obie,

    There are many innocent victims of violence in Kashmir and realistically I don't see this ending until peace returns. But, do try to keep the pundits in mind as well - they deserve justice as well.

    I hope to see the security forces thinking more and acting less as the situation in Kashmir has changed from armed terrorists to mobs of boys (who have barely learned to think).

    Even a SINGLE innocent casualty is too many and certainly the means and training to security forces to achieve that needs to be there. Such an example is badly needed in an area infested with history of violence and abuses. Failing that, another generation of Kashmirs will grow up under the gun and won't know the difference between peace and conflict.

    Do keep the security forces accountable even if you are working against them and hope to see them fail.

    @Jhiya,

    You are entitled to your opinion, but the Indians at this point are convinced that they are prevailing in Kashmir Valley.

    Best Wishes.

    - Anonymous three

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  18. @Anonymous-3(Hitler/Nazi)
    "but the Indians at this point are convinced that they are prevailing in Kashmir Valley".

    Wow- is this what you call prevailing, man your views are becoming apocalyptic......guess u leave us no option but to replace a non-violent struggle with one where we would have to pick up grenades n guns again.

    Cool down bro, India lost Kashmir a long time ago...u r just holding on to the territory...that's all n Rome/Soviet Union/Chenghiz Khan/Turks/British empire etc also prevailed over different parts of the world----but they never succeeded in conquering hearts....n your slum dog country can't even conquer the skin shed off from our bodies forget prevailing over the blood of our 120,000 martyrs.

    You can silence us but u will never be able to break us.

    If you r a Kashmiri Batta, then the only salvation is to denounce what India has done to your brothers n sisters n come back to Kashmir n fight alongside us against the slum dogs.

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  19. @Annoy-mous

    The pain and ache that lies in the heart of the every single Kashmiri including handful of self-exiled tent based pundits pitched in Jammu (only) is not going to heal easily.

    Pundit brethren must not expect justice from the nation whose life revolves around the raped justice system of India, who are crying for justice and peace in every single moment of their life, who are the worst victims of the injustice committed on them and there is no guarantee of the safety of this invisible community that we least bother in a situation when our honour, dignity, fear of life and security is at stake. Also Kashmiris must not expect any favour from security agencies. There will be no peace, more killing more atrocities in Kashmir until and unless every uniformed Indian armed man is kicked out from Kashmir. And I warn you Indians must not think that they can live in peace at the cost of our blood. My dear Indian fellows, please bear in mind, it makes a one single spark to put whole of the jungle into flames. If one part of the body is in pain whole body can feel it. If one tiny part in the country is unrest it will spread whole of that country then you can name it either armed terrorism in uniform or the so-called agitation terrorism with stones in their hand.

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  20. @Annoy-mous

    What prevailment you are talking about the one that is being booted in kashmir in form of Ragda at every single day. Even the Anak, Kurti, Topi and saffron, white and green is not being spared. Your every national celebrations are being black outed in Kashmir. Shame on you boot on your pride.

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  21. @ Anonymous 3
    Read Sir Walter Lawrence's book "The Valley of Kashmir" and tell me when and how India prevailed in Kashmir. Only thing notable there is the high handedness of Kashmiri pandits. KP's were cunning, clever, selfish and ruthless and used to exploit poor Kashmiri Muslims through their benefectors Dogra rulers. Kashmiri Muslims used to resent the attrocities those days by peaceful protests. In one of the protests at Zaldagar by shawl weavers, a Kashmiri pandit trader got 18 Kashmiri Muslims butchered and dozens drowned in the river. Shawl weavers were just demanding their over delayed wages from that Pandit trader.
    Attrocities of Kashmiri pandits are unforgetable and unforgivable. Allah Almighty has delivered the justice and those Pandits who used to feel superior to others are now living in pathetic state of minds. Some are suffering in shanty tented slums and some are enjoying wealthy cosy livings in big cities of India. But all of them are losers. All of them have lost that superiority. All of them are homeless. That is the justice of Almighty.
    Poor Kashmiri Muslims used to say:
    Batte kar gow, Gatte kar meaning pandits work, dark work.
    Batte gow Gratte meaning Pandit is a mill.
    Batte yaar berozgaar meaning Pandit is a friend only when he is unemployed.
    And lastly
    Wazeer Challe, Kasheer Balli meaning Kashmir will get cured the moment Pandit flees.
    I think the last one is spot on.
    Bye Anoymous 3

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  22. Dear Kashmiris.

    If you become part of India. We will make you shine like this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsKNVhYS7oY&feature=related

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  23. You guys are insane and completely blind with hatred. A free Kashmir will turn into another rabid Taliban territory which would be a security nightmare for India.

    At least within Indian borders, there is some check on all the insane elements.

    -- Anonymous 3

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  24. @Anonymous 3/Batta Gaddar/Hindutva Agent

    "You guys are insane and completely blind with hatred. A free Kashmir will turn into another rabid Taliban territory which would be a security nightmare for India. At least within Indian borders, there is some check on all the insane elements".

    How about if we throw this back at you....i.e. You Indians are completely insane and blinded by your hatred of muslim,s...n that's why within your borders you ruthlessly keep on killing Muslims n don't even spare women n Children.

    Something has to be done so that your slaughter of innocent muslims within YOUR INSANE BORDERS STOPS

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  25. Gentlement, the experience of reading blogs by Kashmiri authors has really opened my eyes.

    I have written about your cyber-savvy struggle on my own blog.
    http://reformistani.wordpress.com/

    You are doing good work to bring recognition to your valiant cause for freedom.

    God bless.

    - A Pakistani

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  26. @Kashmir Center
    I knew Kashmiri Pandits have been exploiting Kashmiri Muslims since centuries but I still was having a sort of sympathy for them. Your post and utterences by annoymous 3 opened my mind. I thank you for your short but accurate account of reality of Kashmiri Pandits. Those rare Kashmiri old sayings are a treasure trove and a guiding light for people like me who easily get swayed away by emotions. I have remembered those sayings by heart. Thank you once again Kashmir Center. You people are doing a comendable work.
    @ Yousuf
    Beautiful and sharp writings on your blog are a treat read. Keep it up. I have bookmarked all the Kashmiri bloggers. You and Kashmir Center have become favourites of our whole family. Keep on writing regularly. Waiting for your next post.
    God bless you all.
    Shazai Ali Masoodi
    Birmingham, UK.

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  27. Its Shazia Ali Masoodi not Shazai. Wrote in a hurry.
    Bye and take good care!
    Shazia

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  28. Dear Shazia, I guessed it was Shazia the first time.

    I am humbled by your comment. Thankyou for reading the blog.

    Reading the comments of other more knowledgable posters here is the real treat.

    I will try my best to post regularly.

    Thankyou once again.

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  29. Here is some history for the Indians talking about Pakistan having to withdraw:

    UNSC resolution 47 of 21 April 1948 called for "the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistani national not normally resident therein" and the reduction of Indian forces in the state to "minimum strength required" in order to facilitate a plebiscite. The Security Council modified its decision by resolution 98 of 23 December 1952 which provided for synchronized reduction of troops on both sides of the ceasefire line to 3000 to 6000 on the Pakistani side and 12000 to 18000 on the Indian side. Pakistan agreed, India did not. India's reluctance to demilitarize the State of Jammu and Kashmir was confirmed by Sir Owen Dixon, Head of the UN Commission for India and Pakistan (UNCIP), in his report to the Security Council on 15 September 1950. He sated that, "in the end I became convinced that India's agreement would never be obtained to demilitarization in any form or to provisions governing the period of plebiscite of an such character, as would in my opinion, permit the plebiscite being conducted in conditions sufficiently guarding against intimidation and other forms of influence and abuse by which freedom and fairness of the plebiscite might be imperiled".

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  30. I agree to India's reluctance to a plebiscite. India was in favor of one initially but then Pakistan failed to withdraw troops from the side occupied by them. Much later UN came with different proposals for a plebiscite for which Pakistan was ok but India was against it as by then kashmir had became a part of India. I however personally feel a plebiscite should take place atleast now.

    I do not understand, you guys make India sound like a villain. Unfortunately the countries around the world do not share this opinion. Let us take the example of the Islamic world, everyone with the exception of Pakistan is friendly with India. Even Sadam Hussain was a big fan of India, Iran had friendly relations with India (until recently as India along with the entire world voted against it). A conservative Islamic country like Saudi is friendly towards India as exemplified by the Indian PM's recent visit there. Dubai, Egypt and other gulf countries are friendly towards India and so is Indonesia the largest muslim populated country. Most people of Indonesia infact have Indian names.

    Even Palestine (in-spite of India's arms deal with Israel) has not said anything against India. In fact India is supportive of palestnian cause vice versa Israel.

    The present government of Bangladesh is supportive of India as per the statements they have made and as exemplified by the recent arrests of Pakistan based anti India terrorists operating in their soil. (Though the previous government was irresponsibly negligent)

    If India was such a big villain and as you guys foolishly think an enemy of Islam, shouldn't at least the islamic world be against it? Shouldn't at least the Islamic world make statements condemning India's so called autocracies? How many of them have done it? This speaks the entire story.

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  31. I also dont understand what was the need to use such strong words against Anonymous 3. He just said that India prevails oupon Kashmir and is against a plebiscite because everyone else will demand for one if given to Kashmir. What was the Hitler kind of words used?

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  32. @Subbaiah

    Here is but ONE statement from 56 Islamic Nations on Kashmir:

    The meeting of the 56-nation grouping of Islamic countries in New York earlier this week issued a statement, saying it supported people of Jammu and Kashmir in "realisation of their legitimate right of self determination in accordance with relevant UN resolutions and aspirations of Kashmiri people."

    Among other things, the statement also commented on the human rights situation in Jammu and Kashmir and the death of two women in mysterious circumstances in Shopian recently.

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  33. @yousuf,

    I don't mean this post to be crude, I just want to illustrate a relevant point.

    @Subbaiah.

    If someone raped your mother and sister and murdered your father, Would you send the rapist a thank you note?

    Who is foolish?

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  34. India Loved by Neighbors?

    Even if Indo-Pakistan relationship is set aside for a moment as one of peculiar nature and even if Pakistan is presumed to be responsible for all the wicked behaviour, the question arises why do other countries of the region find it so difficult to forge a closer relationship with India? Why is it that India has failed to evoke trust and confidence among its neighbours to make any worthwhile collaboration impossible, including Saarc? Isn’t it time for hostilities to give way to a congenial environment among South Asian neighbours too?

    India has disputes with almost every neighbour, which has strained their relationships for years at end.

    In Sri Lanka, India overtly and covertly supported the insurgency against the state by LTTE, a nationalist Tamil group in the northern Jaffna region of this small island country, which kept it politically and economically destabilised for decades. In the end, India paid a price for interference when its prime minister, Rajiv Gandhi, was assassinated by a Tamil activist for having betrayed the movement.

    With Bangladesh it is locked in an unresolved dispute over Farakka barrage that deprives Bangladesh of its water share. Despite the gratitude Bangladesh owes to India for having militarily dismembered Pakistan in 1971 to midwife its birth, relations between the two have often sunk to the rock bottom on a host of issues, including border dispute.

    The tiny mountain state of Nepal has complained of persistent Indian dictation and interference in its internal affairs. That India employs economic blockades and manipulates transit facilities to this poor landlocked country for arm twisting is no secret.

    Although not a part of South Asia, China’s relations with India for decades have remained frosty, at best. They went to war in 1962 over a border dispute. Competing for regional leadership, it does not hesitate to antagonise China by hoisting Dalai Lama off and on to keep the issue of Tibet alive. Lately, having aligned itself with America to contain China, India is bargaining for a tense Sino-Indian relationship in the years to come.

    With Pakistan, India maintains the worst of relations mainly because of Pakistan’s political and military standing and its ability to reject Indian domination. Outstanding disputes including Kashmir, water distribution, dams that India constructs in violation Indus Water Treaty and border issues have remained unresolved.

    By joining the American bandwagon in Afghanistan and positioning its troops in the name of infrastructure development, India created enough concerns for Pakistan. But by its collusion with CIA and Mossad to take out Pakistan’s nuclear assets through subversion in Fata, the NWFP and other areas using the militants of Tehrik-i-Taliban, India is slamming shut the door on the peace process that Pakistan has been persistently trying to keep open ever since 1947.

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  35. @Subbaiah,

    Given the lack of any real basis (such as equal rights), Hatred of India is the only fuel available to drive this so-called freedom struggle. How else would this so-called freedom struggle survive?

    I don't blame the Kashmiri people. The problem is that this is a Sunni Muslim population center right next to a Sunni Muslim country that hates India. Obviously some of the Pakistani hatred had to seep in and off course, Pakistan has taken full advantage of POK in doing so.

    Take Sikkim for example, a Buddhist area right next to Tibet. If the Tibetian establishment would have hated India as much as Pakistani establishment hates India, the same thing would have happened in Sikkim.

    -Anonymous 3

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  36. @IndiaShinning,

    It is easier for India to make peace with neighbors who are at peace with themselves, so that vested political interests in those countries do not attempt to make a basket case out of the country's relationship with India.

    If I had to rank India's friendship with its neighbors, it would be in the following order:

    1) Bhutan and Maldives.
    2) Nepal
    3) Sri Lanka & Bangadesh.
    5) Myanmar
    6) Pakistan

    Its easy to see that Bhutan and Maldives are currently most at peace within and hence have good and stable relationships with India. While as, Myanmar and Pakistan have major internal issues that shows up in their relationship with India and in fact the rest of the world.

    Sri Lanka and Bangadesh are in middle of the spectrum. Our relationships with Sri Lanka have improved tremondously after civil war there. Bangadesh has had its own series of ups and downs, but seems relatively stable now; hence, Bangadesh's relationship with India is also relatively stable now.

    If you want good relationship with India stabilize your own countries first.

    - Anonymous 3

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  37. Regarding the 56 Islamic nations statement, there is nothing different than what I have been saying in my earlier comments that the aspirations of kashmiri people should be fulfilled and human rights violation HAS to STOP (Infact I have gone a step further than them stating that there should be a plebiscite). This does not explain their good relations with India.

    Regarding the Anonymous comment if someone raped/murdered my family members, yes I would get screwed and filled with hatred against the Indian army, but that does not mean I will hate an entire religion and its people. People are not raped because they are muslims. It happened because of some wicked frustrated people within the Indian army who are mentally screwed due to living in harsh conditions with their lives being threatened every minute. That dosent mean I spread false propaganda that my country is officially sponsoring terrorism, rape and murder and exaggerate the numbers.

    Regarding relations with neighbors:

    China: Agreed it was sour. India provided shelter to dalailama in-spite of risking the relationship with china out of concern for him and others with him when asked for shelter. Only a country like India could have done it. Also it was china who attacked India first due to border dispute including kashmir border.

    Srilanka: India lost a Prime minister due to supporting Srilanka and sending army against LTTE terrorists. This in-spite the terrorists being Hindu (Tamil). Hence Srilanka has always had great respect and always supports India.

    Nepal: Relation has always been very good exemplified with the open borders we share. It was however sour with the moeist govt as India was against them. Even US had declared them as terrorists as they were involved in violent bloodshed.

    Bangladesh: Relationship v. good with present govt. Previous govt was Islamist fundamentals and anti development because of which they lost election by a record margin.

    Myanmar: has a militry dictator and nobody has good relationship with it.

    What I ask for is just to stop propaganda that India is enemy of Islam, sponsors terrorism etc. This is false and such propaganda will only make things worst for the communal harmony outside kashmir and then the suffers will again be innocent people. This will however make the terrorist and its sponsors happy as they always wanted Hindus and Muslims in India to fight. One good example is the bombing of 2 to 3 mosques in India by the same terrorists who call them-self musliims and who bombed their own place of worship to fuel a communal fight.

    ReplyDelete
  38. @ India Shining

    Quote/ By joining the American bandwagon in Afghanistan and positioning its troops in the name of infrastructure development, India created enough concerns for Pakistan. But by its collusion with CIA and Mossad to take out Pakistan’s nuclear assets through subversion in Fata, the NWFP and other areas using the militants of Tehrik-i-Taliban, India is slamming shut the door on the peace process that Pakistan has been persistently trying to keep open ever since 1947.//Quote/

    It is such propaganda that I want to be stopped.

    1. There is no Indian troops positioned in Afghanistan.

    2. The concerns of Pakistan on Indian influence in Afghanistan is self founded. Indian interest in Afganistan is more humanitarian and also to maintain a name as a major regional player and is not aimed at cornering Pakistan. India does not need to do it as India already has militry superiority and a stable Pakistan is at India's interest to avoid spillover of terrorists.

    3. There is no collaboration with CIA and Mossad apart from routine intelligence sharing on terrorists that is there with all countries.

    4.India is not against peace process with Pak. But Pakistan should do their best to stop terrorism against India before talks can start. If they can send their army to fight Taliban, why cant they send their army to dismantle terrorist camps in Pakistan occupied Kashmir?

    ReplyDelete
  39. India_shinging_even_more_brighterMarch 02, 2010 6:03 AM

    As expected, more evasive maneuvers and diversionary tactics. They bring up how Islamic world loves India vis-a-vis kashmir, when this is refuted... they move on to something else. They say India is the model of good neighbor, when history is presented, we move on to rankings and stability of nations.

    They call justified hatred "foolish". when the tables are turned and they are placed in the hypothetical victim role then we start talking about SOME elements in their army killed/raped, the rest is propaganda.

    How can only "SOME" kill 70000 kashmiris?
    (70,000 is the LOWER LIMIT by INTERNATIONAL MEDIA.)

    Diversions. Repetition. Self-Adulation. That summarizes their approach.

    ReplyDelete
  40. India shining brighter than super novaMarch 02, 2010 6:07 AM

    @anonymous3 - but wait a minute, I thought India was the model of good neighbor -- where did the new stable country and new rankings come from?

    Sorry. Excuse. I am just a dumb non-Indian.

    ReplyDelete
  41. @Bindra
    If Pakistan also attaches same precondition. First stop human rights violations in Kashmir and punish all those security personnel who have committed human rights violations in Kashmir, then only shall we talk. Wont it be a dead end.
    To evade International pressure, India is playing Chanaykya niti. Do this and do that. Things are not resolved like that. If India thinks it is some sort of a bully, which can dictate terms to others, then India is living in a fools paradise. If India is not in a mood to solve the Kashmir problem, then why waste time in non sense preconditions which are impossible to meet. Kashmir is a problem since last 63 years. Why did not India solve it when there were no militant camps in Azad Kashmir. At that time India used to sing its favourite "Atoot Ang" song. Now atleast it has forgot that song. Thanks to those militant camps in Azad Kashmir.

    ReplyDelete
  42. @Bindra and Anonymous 3
    By the way my latest post is on India's greatness. You should peep into my blog to cherish that sweet.

    ReplyDelete
  43. @Bindra and Anonymous 3
    By the way my latest post is on India's greatness. You should peep into my blog to cherish that sweet.

    ReplyDelete
  44. India shining brighter than surface of sunMarch 02, 2010 1:21 PM

    Behind the Indian's trickery, legalese, bureaucracy, delay tactics, sugar-coating, pakistan-bashing, CBT-mantra, lectures, historical arguments and other such diversionary tactics is a very simple position for their stance.

    This position is basically "Might is Right".

    ReplyDelete
  45. @KC,

    The reason India hesitates to talk to Pakistan is because Pakistan constantly tries to use force to settle the Kashmir issue in its favor thereby showing that Pakistan is not serious about resolving the Kashmir issue through talks.

    Initially that force took the form of outright wars against India including an attempt to annex the princely state of J&K in 1947. However, after increasing losses in each war now they seem to be convinced that outright wars against India won't work (but still they felt compelled to attack Kargil).

    Since outright wars didn't work, they tried to replicate the successes of ISI/CIA funded mujaheddin in dislodging the soviet army from Afghanistan in an attempt to wrestle Kashmir out of Indian control. However, even that has failed given the state of anarchy that Pakistan now finds itself in because of the terrorists that it breeds.

    So now they are begging us to talk, but STILL haven't stopped funding the terrorists, i.e part of them wants to seek legitimacy through talks while a part of them STILL wants to force the Kashmir issue in their favor.

    How else would India know that Pakistan is serious about talks (including talks on the Kashmir issue) if Pakistan does not abjure use of terrorism as a state policy?

    Also, Pakistan is equally if not more responsible for human-rights violations in Kashmir Valley. Keep in mind that it was the Pakistani trained, funded, and armed militants/terrorists who wreaked havoc in Kashmir Valley in 1989 before Indian security forces stepped in.

    -- Anonymous 3

    ReplyDelete
  46. KC wrote:
    > At the time India used to sing its favorite
    > "Atoot Ang" song. Now atleast it has forgotten
    > that song.
    >

    There are larger issues here than just Kashmir Valley. A true peace in south Asia would mean that not only people from Kashmir, but also Indians, Pakistanis, and Afghans would be able to freely travel and conduct business in the region.

    Think of EU and then try to see if SAARC has the potential to be there. That is what peace in south Asia would mean and that is what Pakistani establishment is most scared of.

    -- Anonymous 3

    ReplyDelete
  47. India has naturally become one of multinational of USA & Co. After 9/11 India electronic media controlled by corporate world in collaboration with western players have been desperately projecting India the super power of the sub – continent that is why in line with western hegemonic attitude, India is bullying its neighbours in
    Particular the archrival Pakistan after 26/11 on the same line USA bullied the whole Muslim world in pretext of 9/11. While as the latter military might did not last long in Iraq and foreseen retreat in Afghanistan. The former did show some half-hearted military movement in its northern & western border during parliament and Mumbai attacks. In other words does India had enough resources to wage war against Pakistan. London conference about the future of occupied Multi – National forces in Afghanistan humiliated India, which lead to the failed Indo-Pak foreign secretary talks. Despite India’s economic growth, India is still a third world country in western eyes, slum dogs Oscar winners, where 70% of the population is living below poverty line, where 70% of population has no clean dirking water facility and toilets, where people can be seen shit on road while on a joy ride in train. Where financial city Mumbai has 56% slum dog population and 2025 predictions whole of Mumbai will be converting into slums. And above all where there is huge gap between rich and poor. Winning 07 Oscars for Slum Dog millionaire does not make India supreme. I won’t touch internal destabilization of India, which is fully explained above.

    India must learn to live with its neighbours peacefully than to bully them.

    ReplyDelete
  48. @anonymous three

    [quote]//Think of EU and then try to see if SAARC has the potential to be there. That is what peace in south Asia would mean and that is what Pakistani establishment is most scared of.//

    Indians shouldn't even compare themselves to any EU country. No country in the EU is acting as a fascist like India is. The principle of EU is underpinned on the foundations of democracy and the will of the people: something very alien to Indias with their "atoot ang" blabberings. The population of each member country constituting the EU had to have a referendum on whether to join the union.

    In contrast, India's fascist policies are diametrically opposed to everything the EU espouses. Forcefully holding on to Kashmir, that it was ordered by the UN to hold a referendum in, is proof that India is a fascist country--a USSR or Nazi Germany wannabe.

    When it holds a plebiscite in Kashmir only then can it even talk about a union like EU in south Asia. Until then, India is the only impediment to peace in this part of the world.

    And no, it's not Pakistan that has 700,000 occupation troops suppressing 4 million Kashmiris seeking freedom--it is India. India is the only villain in south Asia.

    ReplyDelete
  49. @ANONYMOUS 3/ BATTA Gaddar

    "The reason India hesitates to talk to Pakistan is because Pakistan constantly tries to use force to settle the .............."

    Who are you kidding man, you arrested our prime minister,diluted the article 370 vide various amendments brought forth during the time of Shastri, have a force of 700,000 troops on the ground not counting intelligentsia in mufti n don't talk to even the true Kashmiri leadership(some of whom have been repeatedly jailed n arrested)and then go on harping the Pakistan tune. For Shiva/Brahma/Ram/Sita's sake stop diverting n using Pakistan for all the things gone haywire under the sun and get out of Kashmir.

    "Initially that force took the form of outright wars against India including........Kargil".

    If you enter my house forcibly n through deceit and then push me into a corner stating that the house now belongs to you cause MIGHT IS RIGHT.....I ain't gonna accept that hegemony because buddy THIS IS MY HOME N LAND...It's you(Indian slum dog) who is the foreigner here n Pakistan is just a brother who supports us downtrodden people, If you have to blame someone, then blame us Kashmiris just like how the Israelis blame the Palestinians....Talk about double standards n Indians will win all the Olympic medals.

    "Since outright wars didn't work, they tried to replicate the successes of ISI/CIA funded mujaheddin in dislodging the soviet army......."

    Remember what happened to the Soviet army, repent now and leave us Kashmiris alone before we start taking up arms like the Afghan Mujaheddin as you simply r leavin us no choice at all but to die fighting for what is right.

    "How else would India know that Pakistan is serious about talks (including talks on the Kashmir issue) if Pakistan does not abjure use of terrorism as a state policy?"

    How would we Kashmiris believe that you Indians are sincere till the slum dog Indian army is not moved out of Kashmir, How would we Kashmiris know that you are sincere till you Indians go to the UN security council and ask for the various resolutions to be implemented in letter n spirit. Keep blamin Pakistan n they will continue beggin u.....how much can Indians glorify themselves has basically stunned us Kashmiris who watch as mute spectators and yet are the ones being killed.

    "Also, Pakistan is equally if not more responsible for human-rights violations in Kashmir Valley...........".

    You must be Insane,
    1)WHAT LED TO THE KASHMIRIS STARTING AN ARMED REVOLUTION IN KASHMIR?
    2) WHY WAS OUR PRIME MINISTER ARRESTED BY SLUM DOGS IN 1953?
    3)WHY WAS THE SADRE-RIYASAT system ABOLISHED?
    4) WHY DID INDIA REJECT UN PROPOSALS OF KEEPING A MINIMUM force of only 16000 troops in J&K till a plebiscite is held?
    5)Does Pakistan have a presence of 700,000 plus troops in J&K?
    6)Is Pakistan responsible for more than 8000 registered cases of rapes across Kashmir valley?
    7)Has Pakistan butchered more than 120,000 Kashmiris mostly innocent civilians?
    8) Does Pakistan award people like Moma Kana with Padma Shris?

    Look Batta/Hindutva agent, we have heard and gone through this entire tirade before....however it is extremely hard to convince a people when you are the perpetrator of everything evil under the skies.

    ReplyDelete
  50. السلام علیکم, This is my first visit at your blog and I wish you folks the best success in your struggle.
    My humble opinion is that Muslims are not so politically weak that they can't resolve the issues of Kashmir and Palestine through UNO. It's just that our countries are governed by the most shameless of all creatures on earth; the ones who feel no shame—not even for the sake of لا الہ الا ﷲ محمد رسول ﷲ.
    Regards,
    May Allah (SWT) help the Kashmiris and Palestinians in their noble cause. آمین.

    ReplyDelete
  51. QUOTE | The reason India hesitates to talk to Pakistan is because Pakistan constantly tries to use force to settle the Kashmir issue in its favor thereby showing that Pakistan is not serious about resolving the Kashmir issue through talks. |


    Was it Pakistan that swallowed Junagadh on the basis of majority hindu against the wishes of the nawab?
    Was it Pakistan that swallowed Hyderabad on the basis of majority hindu against the wishes of the nizam?
    Was it Pakistan that swallowed Kashmir on the basis of the maharaja toilet paper instrument irrespective of the muslim majority’s wishes?
    Was it Pakistan that overran Goa's 400 Portugese with 35,000 ogres?
    Was it Pakistan that annexed sikkim?
    Was it Pakistan that rampaged through the sacred sikh golden temple and humiliated its followers?
    Was it Pakistan that ransacked Babri Masjid?
    Was it Pakistan that committed a state-sponsored pogram in gujrat?
    Was it Pakistan that sent their military to sri lanka and massacred both the Sinhalese and the Tamils in velvettiturai and trincomalee?
    Was it Pakistan that crossed internationally recognized borders into East Pakistan?
    Was it Pakistan that invaded Siachen Glacier?
    Was it Pakistan that has 700,000 ape-like ogres in kashmiri cities?

    Who is the aggressor hypocrite?

    ReplyDelete
  52. >>Initially that force took the form of outright wars against India including an attempt to annex the princely state of J&K in 1947. However, after increasing losses in each war now they seem to be convinced that outright wars against India won't work (but still they felt compelled to attack Kargil).

    In 1948, Pakistan simply followed the example of big brother's behavior in Junagadh. A country one-twelfth the size of yours LIBERATED 33% of Kashmir now called AZAD kashmir by locals on BOTH sides of the LOC and you have the audacity or stupidity to call it a loss?

    A loss is when a country slightly bigger than yourself (China) sends you running with your pants down and your anus bleeding. THAT is called a loss.

    Kargil wasn't an attack, it was Pakistan's failed counter to distrupt the supplies lines to indian invasion of pakistani territory (siachen).

    ReplyDelete
  53. "Also, Pakistan is equally if not more responsible for human-rights violations in Kashmir Valley. Keep in mind that it was the Pakistani trained, funded, and armed militants/terrorists who wreaked havoc in Kashmir Valley in 1989 before Indian security forces stepped in."

    Listen to my brothers speak. Hear their words. Hear their words for Pakistan, a poor, isolated, troubled nation. Listen to their words about your wealthier and advanced India. Witness how the kashmiris here speak of you and how they speak of us. With all the faults in Pakistan, they call me brother. They rejoice when we win the world cup, they feel the same pain when we lose. They celebrate our championships. They symphatize when we suffer and we sympathize when they suffer. They look past my country's blemishes. They would rather starve in under-developed and improvished Azad Kashmir, than live in one of your high-tech cyber-cities. In 1965, we wrongly blamed the Kashmiris for not rising up to support the ill-coordinated attack. Still they welcome me with open arms. My shameless leaders talk about abandoning Kashmir to future generations… Still these kashmiris treat me with love. Still they express their desire for a union of nations with Pakistan. They support me from abroad, they support me from home, they support me in midst of 700,000 ogres. They support me while staring down the barrel of your gun. They support me even when I feel I am not worthy of their support.

    To those brothers and sisters, I say justice is coming to you and it is coming to India. If not today, then tomorrow. If not this generation, then the next. Freedom will smile upon kashmir valley the way it smiled upon the panjir valley, the slave quarters of America, the villages of Algeria, the shantytowns of johannesburg and the rice paddies of indochina.

    History bears witness to seekers of freedom outlasting the reign of barbaric oppressors. Inch'allah, we will live to see a unified and independent kashmir. Ameen.

    ReplyDelete
  54. @Yousuf,

    I wasn't comparing India with EU, what I said was that an EU like scenario where free movement of trade and people can take place is quite possible (maybe in next 50 years) if there is peace in the region.

    @Chinnar,

    Too many points/questions raised. Unfortunately, I don't have time to evaluate the relevancy of or reply to each. But, I get your basic point that you have made over and over again: "India/Indians leave kashmir, we hate you, you are evil/worse/enemy of Islam/etc".

    Unfortunately, I don't think India is leaving Kashmir. If this conflict is to end, some kind of middle ground will have to emerge.

    If you want to "pick up guns again" as you say, it will only make the situation in Kashmir Valley itself worse and further destroy the development of your own community while the rest of the world moves forward. Given the current state of affairs in Pakistan, I can probably say the same for Pakistan also.

    - A3

    ReplyDelete
  55. @Pak
    Thank you for your concern and support brother. Pakistan is our heart beat no matter who is at the helm of affairs in Pakistan. We love Qaid e Azam's Pakistan which considered Kashmir as its jagular vein and no Musharraf or Zardari can cut that Jagular vein. Those who want Kashmir to be put in the cold storage are enemies of Pakistan. Pakistan's existence shall be at stake, if it surrenders before Indian chanakya niti. Kashmir will be free one day and Pakistan will be our first line of defence against evil like India. Insh Allah Pakistan will be strong and sound again. Allah will protect you.

    ReplyDelete
  56. Well Kashmiri can never repay the sacrifices Pakistani brethen have given with regard to Kashmir and this strong bonding and relationship between us is running like blood in our veins. But to my opinion Independent Kashmir must not be compromised in any way.

    ReplyDelete
  57. I love the slowly deteriorating tone of A3's posts. In the beginning he was posting with supreme confidence in his knowledge, intelligence and above all his India.

    And then... complete and utter defeat in this debate on all grounds... legal, moral, intellectual, philosophical and statistical.

    Pakistan is the regional aggressor theory. Trashed by Facts.

    Kashmiris want India.. Trashed.

    India is the best neighbor... trashed.

    Kashmir is an integral part of India... trashed.

    Pakistan violating kashmiris... pathetic.

    Islamic world loves India....trashed.

    pakistan interfering in India but nobody interfering with Pakistan... beneath contempt.

    Only some are responsible for kashmir... read amnesty international.

    A3, If you were looking for "ignorant" muslims to bash, as a regular reader I assure you kashmir-truth-be-told blog is not the place for an intellectual midget such as yourself.

    ReplyDelete
  58. I would like to provide ktbt readers with a real treat. Our indian guests have told us such wonderful things about their unity.

    Now see this:
    http://www.topix.com/forum/topstories/TA62D022JN5E0OAK4/p660

    This is 14,000 post thread where Indians tear each other up on the basis of regions, levels of ugliness, culture, race, development, ethnicities. It is a real joy to read.

    Here is one post:

    "are you trying to say ranbir kapoor is ugly? in my opinion he looks better then 90% of all souuth indian men...

    whats your point? why are you showing non pakis like ranbir, kareena, pryanka chpra, borat, as pakis??

    pakis are good looking. as a sikh, i will always boutch for the pakistani punjabis. they are good looking. the best looking pakis are the pathans, then the punjabis, then the baluchis, then the sindhis, then the muharjirs from india.
    sindhi pakistanis are pretty much like rajasthanis, dark but still fine featured, narrow nosed and handsome.

    south indians are ugly. i only think keralites, and marathis may come close to looking descent. the rest of you guys are black like shit. ranbir kapoor is not ugly compared to the majority of southies "

    SO MUCH FOR UNITY AND HARMONY.

    ReplyDelete
  59. @pak
    your views hold some ground, but things happen to be worst in pak as well, we have seen how sindhis, punjabis, pathans, mohajirs and bloaches fight each other.
    recent mass exodus of people of swat and nwfp were very shabily welcomed in karachi and other parts of pakistan which also speak of your unity as a muslim. india is looting the natural resources of kashmir and pak is stealing the wealth of rich minerals of Bloachistan.

    ReplyDelete
  60. @ Pak, Just because we dont comment does not mean there is no facts. Cant you see the above facts given by Subbaiah. You guys will some how not believe it and will somehow counter it as you have been told to hate India since long. It is like a mental block.. you have been brainwashed...so there is no point.

    Agreed we have useless politicians. That is the case across most part of the world including Islam countries as "icdumppl" pointed out. That does not mean they are evil and terrorize people as a state policy.

    I read the link provide by @ Pak. It is like Brothers and Sisters fighting with each other. Looks like some college guys have posted it. Infact in college we had a group of friends of North Indians and South Indians. One north Indian friend declared that they are superior as they are fairer. He also said that we south Indian friends have tails hidden in our pants.
    We just laughed and forgot it. That does not mean everyone have no ill feeling.

    Ill feeling is there across entire humanity. after Sept 11 USA has seen revenge killings of innocent muslims. Communal clashes have been seen in India and many countries. Germany has seen the worst blood shed of Jews. Islam countries have seen the fight between Sunnis and Shia's. This is the unfortunate part of humanity.

    I finally urge my Kashmir and Pakistani friends not to compare the Palestine struggle with that of the Kashmir struggle. The people of present Israil are outsiders who have come to the present Israil to escape the torture of Hitler. So Palestinians have a point there.

    However Kashmir has always been part of the Indian Subcontinent, Indian kingdoms and also British India. The word Kashmir has been derived from the Sanskrit word Ka = water and Shimir = land. "The land of Water".

    Kashmir language was originally written in Sharada script and the Kashmiri people irrespective of the religion are from the Indo-Aryan sect of people and Indo-Iranian Subsect. So we are of the same blood.

    The Jews of Israil are outsiders who have come to Israil whereas here the case is reversed... Infact the entire North Indians them-selfs or you can say the entire Indo-Aryans are technically Outsiders (but now we are one).

    So let us not remain in the narrow minded divisions of caste and religion which will only pull us backwards.. let us accept the broader reality and strive for peace and harmony. Let us do all it takes to fight for our rights. and let us not throw venom on others... I promise that I personally will take up the issue of Human rights violation in Kashmir in the way I can and inspire fellow Indians to take up this cause. I am sure things will change and peace will return to the valley. May God be with you.

    ReplyDelete
  61. @Mystic India

    Kashmir was never part of India. That is a myth.

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  62. @Yousuf,

    Historically, Kashmir has always been part of India. The only thing that is new here in your freedom struggle.

    -A3

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  63. @ Mystic Indian
    Well Well Well ! We were taught in schools through NCERT propoganda books, which are also biased and blasphemous that Kashmir actually was a Lake named Satisar. Harmful Demons used to infest in that lake. Then a Seer by the name of Khaypa Rishi came and dug a tunnel or canal in between the mountain walls surrounding Satisar. The water drained out and dried up the lake resulting in the death of harmful demons. Since then this place was named as Kashmir in honour of that Hindu mythological seer Kashaypa Rishi. This bull shit is also written in the Kalhana's myth Rajtarangni.
    Now which myth should we follow, the one narrated above or the one vomitted out by you. Ka means water and Shimir means land. All non sense shit.
    Kashmir basically is Kasheer. Do not try to distort this name and vainfully attribute this name to your lunatic mythology.
    By the way what about Pamir, Kunduz, Hindu Kush, Karghanda, which are in Central Asia. Are they also part of India just because the names have Sanskrit something in them. If you want to know more about Kashmir, then tell me I will open your blind eyes in an eloberate post.
    P. S : Kashmiris are not Indo Aryans, we have no Dravidian blood in us. Thank God for that mercy.

    ReplyDelete
  64. JHIYA,

    My post was about the content of Indian posts/arguments on this blog. It was not a comparison. Pakistani posters don't make any claims of unity, stability or superiority of our country nor do we presume 'ownership' of kashmir as opposed to the colonialist mentality of the indians.

    My post was reffering to indian arguments getting destroeyd by logic and reason.

    Regards.

    ReplyDelete
  65. @ Mystic India,
    "However Kashmir has always been part of the Indian Subcontinent, Indian kingdoms and also British India".

    Can u please elaborate on how Kashmir has always been a part of India....please do not use religion/barbaric conquerors like Asoka or Akbar as your prerequisite. Let me know when the British Indian army entered Kashmir, also please confirm which part of Kashmir region had British garrisons and administrative quarters.

    Please base your discussion/debate on facts and not religious mythology or warped hindutva ideology.

    ReplyDelete
  66. @ Kashmir Centre... Your hatered for India does not make you see anything beyond and beleive anything. Wikipedia is a non-biased western encyclopedia. You can open it type Kashmir and see.

    Do not call Hindu Mythology as lunatic. Esp since I didnt say anything against your religion. You will shit in your pants if you understand the real essence of Hindu Mythology. (because I almost did shit in my pants when I understood) There could be some made up stories and exageration inbetween but the essence of it is something that goes above our mediocre brains.

    While the west and most other religions beleived the Earth was the centre of the universe and a few thousand years old and flat in nature. It was only the Vedas that said that the Universe was 311 thrillion earth years old equal to 100 Brahma years. (Time since bigbang is estiamted @ 20 billion years, so you know how many more years this universe will survive). The vedas confirm the big bang theory and the expanding theory of the universe as told by present day scientists and talks about an infinate cycles of infinate universes each lasting for around 311 thrillion earth years. With One supreme god being the source of everything that exists including all other gods and and all other lifes (including the creator god of our universe Brahma). (The understanding of infinite is beyond human comprehension)

    The vedas have confirmed with near acuracy centuries back the diameter of the earth, moon and the speed of the sun which was confirmed centuries later via modern scientific calculations. So be proud as even you unknowingly are part of this culture.

    You can search "Hindu Cosmology" in Youtube or google if interested to learn more.

    Do not call anothers Mythology as lunatic without knowing anything. The knowledge you and I have about life and its mystries is just a drop of water in the ocean. The reality is very difficult to grasp just like the original theory of caste system that was misunderstood and used as a tool to discriminate.

    Just imagine dude in this one galaxy (milky way)there are 100 billion stars most of which are much bigger than our sun with their own planets and there are more than 100 billion galaxies in this universe and we dont know how many universes exist. And imagine how much life will exist outside this earth. In midst of all this.. is it worth we humans fight in the name of religion...

    ReplyDelete
  67. @ Chinaar...I suggest even you read the history in some unbiased encyclopedia like wiki. Don't call Ashoka and Akbar as barbaric. Ashoka was the most peace loving emperor who embraced Buddhism to preach non-violence after seeing the blood shed in the battle of Kalinga. Akbar was one of the best emperors India has had in recent past and the most secular Muslim king who encouraged Hindu art and literature that led to the blending of Muslim and North Indian cultures during those times.

    ReplyDelete
  68. @ mystic India,

    You still are skirting from the issue, with due respect to your religious beliefs, all I was asking is give me proof of when Kashmir had been a part of British India or when it had garrisons or administrative quarters housing Britishers....bottom line....give me palatable facts.

    Akbar attacked Kashmir seven times and mercilessly killed Kashmiris, when he couldn't win in an outright war, he connived with the Kashmiri pandits and invited Yusuf Shah Chakh to Delhi for a treaty. In Delhi he was imprisoned and then sent to Bihar where he was murdered. So yes Akbar was good for the Indians but very very bad for us Kashmiris. Asoka attacked Kashmir and ruthlessly murdered Kashmiri Hindus/pagans of that time....he brutally slaughtered Hindus like pigs and then finally when his thirst for blood through some divine miracle got satisfied, he started to convert all of India into Buddhism n Kashmiri Hindus had to follow suit. Not accepting Buddhism meant disenfranchising oneself from government patronage.

    History as Napoleon aptly put it is how the victorious puts it. Wiki by the way stands to be corrected all the time as it is humans who write it n humans do make errors. Wiki also mentions Kashmiris as a distinct dardic people who belong to the central asian ethos n r distinct from Indians. If religion is your criterion then we as Kashmiris should now be a part of Afghanistan or Pakistan or Tajikistan or Iran. Nepal is a Hindu state n yet it is an independent country n not a part of India.

    Mythology means myth....at least that's how I understand it but this is not a question of ones faith n I deeply respect your religious sentiments as my ancestors at one time were Hindu Brahmans too who saw in Islam a greater appeal and therefore got convinced by Shah Hamdan/Bulbul Shah etc.Just like how we at one period in history converted to Hinduism from paganism, we converted at a later stage to Buddhism.......religion by itself should not decide the national aspirations of a people.

    In your case, India is pseudo-democracy held together by 70% Hindus through their war machinery.The Kakkatiyas, The chalukyas, the Kanishkas were never a part of your so called India n the subcontinent has almost always been a region of multiple nationalities which is apparent blatantly even today with 29 states n counting. Each state has a different language, regional aspirations so much so that Telangana, Maratha pride, Tamil ethos, insurgency in the northeast, Maoist struggles etc is a hallmark of "no-unity in diversity".

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  69. continued....
    In Kashmir, a Kashmiri batta whether he married a Kashmiri Muslim or a batta was ensured that his/her homogeneity would continue....but in the Dravidian ocean of today, the battas are lost forever i.e. if they repent n let go of their religious affiliations n come home to fight side by side with their Muslim brothers. You have asked us to read some unbiased wikis....I ask you to read UN resolutions on Kashmir, I ask you to come and talk to 70,000 Kashmiri Hindus who never left Kashmir n suffered as we have suffered. My friend in your absence, Kashmiri Muslims have even taken care of your shrines all over the valley whereas Kashmiri Battas in connivance with RAW, Indian army,BSF etc have murdered their own kith n kin in hundreds of thousands. Truly never in history was less than 1% of a particular population so powerful.

    Again Akbar attacked Kashmir n annexed it, Asoka attacked Kashmir n annexed it. We were independent at the time of Avantiverman as we were at the time of ZainulAbideen(Budshah) but not when the Sikhs annexed our territory or when the dogra general connived with the British and after the Sikhs were defeated got Kashmir as a reward at the treaty of Amritsar for a measly royalty to the British crown.

    So who really is brainwashed my friend, you as Hindus with your cult like hegemony over a people who don't want to be with you or us who demand a just,secular,democratic,unbiased,non-theocratic right to self determination as promised to us at the UN??????

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  70. @Chinnar,

    Kashmir was a princely state within British India. Kashmir, under Ranbir Singh, sided with British in 1857 and hence was allowed to continue operating as a princely state; while as, states that fought the British were brought under direct British control after 1857.

    Ashoka (300BC) and Akbar (~1500) conquered Kashmir, but I don't see what's new here? They conquered Kashmir just like they conquered rest of India.

    -A3

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  71. @pak,

    If India is disunited (as you say), then by that standard, what is Pakistan? An anarchy?

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  72. History says there has been no political, cultural, trade links between Kashmir and present day India, with the advent of Mughals, it was during 16/17 century when the political landscape changed. Even the present day India never existed prior to Mughal and British rule. Jawahar Tunnel is witness to this fact. Mughals who ruled India 800 years were of central Asian descent and East India Company ruled 200 years simultaneously. Mughal Empire was the biggest empire of Asian Sub continental i.e., present day India, Pakistan and parts of Afghanistan and Kashmir.
    Zainul Abideen Budshah who ruled Kashmir 56 years was from Swat.

    Famous silk route Kashmir to Yarkhand to Kashgar was the only trade route available joining Kashmir to Central Asian countries. Our arts, culture, language and food were influenced by this trade link. Kashmir could have been a lake and there dwelt a demon is a myth. Ka means water and Shimir means land and Kash or Kush was a tribe of whose name Kashgar in China, Hindu Kush in Afganistan and Kash in Kashmir were given.

    Where the hell Indians are drinking noon chai (salt tea) and “Kahwa” Mughal Tea. “Wazaan” cuisine can be forbidden to Hindus. Even Brahmins of Kashmir were unique to the fellow Indian Brahmin of having privilege to eat meat. History of each nation go to different phases and event which lead to influence in language, arts and crafts etc etc.

    True we have been reading made in India NCERT textbooks where villains are being portrayed as heroes and vice versa.

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  73. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  74. @ A3
    "Kashmir was a princely state within British India"

    Then why the British were not allowed to hold any territory at all in Kashmir.

    "while as, states that fought the British were brought under direct British control after 1857".

    so my friend you still are following the policies of your colonial master in order to keep a hopeless situation together....thank you for agreeing with me that subcontinent had different nationalities who were brought under one rule by brute force and not mutual democratic agreement.

    Ha ha ha...A-3, the British have left you an unworkable legacy, there r too many loopholes here....it ain't gonna work for long. You will have to go back to saner divisions that make sense to all. For a millenia except a few instances in history the subcontinent was PRIMARILY a region of multiple kingdoms and that's the way it should be. Try as you might, brute force from the COW BELT will not prevail for too long.

    Regards

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  75. @A3 - I thought you were to busy there sexy guy?

    Much like United States, we have turned against the Taliban, formerly Ronald Reagan's "freedom fighters", so yes there is civil strife in Pakistan.

    At least I am not blind like your monkey ass to 37+ separatist movements in India, the very current Marathi/Mumbai issue, India's red corridor. For you to make this statement on a blog where 'your' 'citizens' call you slumdog and me a brother is a testament of 'your' unity.

    Wait, I think I know your response to this post.

    a) You are too busy providing customer service to someone in the west.

    b) you want to move on to a different topic

    c) India is shining

    d) ISI is responsible for Indian's over-population.

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  76. Indian's Quote: "Wikipedia is a non-biased western encyclopedia. You can open it type Kashmir and see."

    LOL.
    Where do I even begin with this? It is almost as tragic as it is comical. Do I try to educate him or I do let him live in bliss?

    You know what mystic, you are right. Wikipedia is a cornerstone of scholarly, academic research. One should especially seek wikipedia when discussing highly charged topics such as kashmir, nationalism, ethnic cleansing etc.

    After all, it's not like those intellijint wejterners will just let anybody write in an enshyklopejia.

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  77. Gentlemen, Let us stay clear of insulting religions.

    In the past, Indian posters have taunted us with incendiary comments such as "wanting to rape gori kashmiris". I know it is hard to control your anger when they make such callous comments about occupied kashmir.

    however, we must control our passions when it comes to faith.

    Everything else is open season.

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  78. >
    > History says there has been no political,
    > cultural, trade links between Kashmir and
    > present day India,
    >

    Most of J&K is run by the present-day India, so I don't know what you mean. As far as history is concerned, I would again like to bring your attention to the Maurya's, Sikh's, and Mughals who ruled Kashmir.

    Since Buddhism and Hinduism held sway in Kashmir before arrival of Islam in 14th century, I don't see how you can claim that there was no cultural contact.

    Further India has historically traded not just with Kashmir, but also with regions lying all around Kashmir: China, Tibet, Afghanistan, Central Asia, Iran, etc for thousands of years, so I don't see why would Kashmir be an exception.

    > with the advent of
    > Mughals, it was during 16/17 century when the
    > political landscape changed.
    >

    I don't quite understand what you mean, but if you are implying that political landscape in south asia was constant before the arrival of Mughals, that is not true.


    >
    > Even the present
    > day India never existed prior to Mughal and
    > British rule.
    >

    Incorrect. India was unified under Maurya's and upto a slightly lesser extent by the Gupta's as well. After the Mughal empire, the Marathas aimed to unify India again and succeeded upto a large extent until the British took over.

    >
    > Mughals who ruled India 800 years
    > were of central Asian descent
    >

    Mughals ruled India only for around 250 years and that too not all of it for most of the time. For example, Akbhar (who is regarded as the greatest of the Mughals) ruled only over North India.

    The Mughal empire extended over all of India only for a very short time (20 years or so) under Auregzeb (the last of the great Mughal kings). Aurengzeb is also credited for the demise of Mughal empire due to his intolerant policies towards non-Muslim subjects.

    They were originally from central asia. However, later Mughal kings married Rajputs and were completely absorbed into the country that they ruled.

    >
    > and East India
    > Company ruled 200 years simultaneously.
    >

    British rule in India started with few trading posts under East India Company in 1700's. It was only after the revolt of 1857 that India passed completely into British hands. In 1947, India gained Independence.

    > Mughal Empire was the biggest empire of Asian
    > Sub continental i.e., present day India,
    > Pakistan and parts of Afghanistan and Kashmir.

    Not true. Mauryan empire under Ashoka was bigger than the largest extent of Mughal Empire by around 400,000 square kilometers. Also, the Gupta Empire was probably around the same size as the Mughal Empire for most of the time. However Gupta empire wasn't exactly an empire as the Guptas ruled many areas by mutual agreement.

    > Zainul Abideen Budshah who ruled Kashmir 56
    > years was from Swat.

    No doubt an important king in Kashmir.

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  79. > @ A3
    > "Kashmir was a princely state within British
    > India"
    >
    > Then why the British were not allowed to hold
    > any territory at all in Kashmir.
    >

    After the Anglo-Sikh wars, the Sikh's gained control of Kashmir as a result of agreement with the British. Later, the Sikh rulers of Kashmir sided with the British during the war of 1857. The rulers of "friendly" states (such as Kashmir) that were loyal to the British were generally allowed to continue under the "protection" of British offcourse.

    So to answer your question, is not that the British weren't allowed to hold Kashmir territory, its more like they did not need to as the ruler of Kashmir was collaborating with the British mostly.

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  80. >
    > so yes there is civil strife in Pakistan.
    >

    Not civil strife. Anarchy (based on your own standard that India is disunited).

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  81. Kashmir has never been ruled by its native. Maurya's, Sikh's, or Mughals all were outsiders. Only one person can claim to the throne is the Lalitaditya – Muktapida, from Tibet in the east to Iran and Turkey in the west was under his command and control.

    Buddhism and Hinduism was not only the religion of present India, but Afghanistan, Present Pakistan, Tibet, China and other central Asian states. Does it mean Padmasambhava the Great Great Spiritual Guru revered, as second Buddha born in Swat, now Pakistan and deep-rooted influence of Buddhism in Afganistan in the shape of Bamyan Buddha are part of Nepal because Buddha was born in Lumbini in Nepal. Nepal cannot claim Swat and Afganisation or Kashmir and for that matter Indian states because their religion was Buddhism.

    Yes prior to Mughals it was ruled by local Kashmiri Kings.

    Again I want to make it clear that Kashmir was deep rooted culturally, socially in arts crafts and trade to central asian states in the past history.

    The vast empire of Mauryas, Mughals and British were ruled by small time kings and princesses, Maharajas and Nawabs.

    Aurangzeb was the great Mughal King who ruled most of india 60 years, and credit must go to him who kept India united despite odds in its present shape.

    Indian cannot claim Kashmir because 13% language consists of sanskrit which normal indian does not speak or Iran cannot claim Kashmir because 23% of Kashmiri language consists of persian or the papier machie goods, shawls and persian techniques we used in making famous Kashmir carpets on this basis.

    After India got indepdence in 1947 from British Raj, they occupied Kashmir and the bottom line is kashmir is a disputed terriority on the map of this world and it has to be resolved as per the wishes and aspiration of the people of J&K irrespective of what religion they follows, what race they belong and what culture and language they speak.

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  82. @ A3

    You know what, since the British ruled you for quite some time n so did Alexander n also Chenghiz Khans grandson Halaku.....u should try n become a part of either the British, Greek or Mongolian empires....take your pic as you were ruled by these kings for a long time and therefore as you have suggested belong to them.....so we should start calling your country hindmongolistan.

    A-3 your comments make no academic sense to me, all you talk about is annexations and give legal credence to them.

    Alright, lemme try one last time.....give me one particular instance when Kashmiris like Indians in the cow belt stood up against the Britishers and demanded that Britishers should leave Kashmir? Who was our freedom struggle directed against? Why should we Kashmiris celebrate August 15 as Independence day? and what/who did we Kashmiris achieve this independence from?

    Try n be logical n no Akhand Bharat theories here...be academic please

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  83. I would like to comment on why India is rightfully India and will never disintegrate the soviet union way. In the pre-historic period around 3000 BC itself though India was ruled by smaller kingdoms...these kingdoms used to pay their tributes to an emperor (such as King Yudistira whose capital was Indraprasta, Present day Delhi). It was just like how kashmir and few other princely states of India used to pay their tributes to the British. Those were days of relative peace.

    The kingdoms ranged from Kandhahar in Afganistan (Then known as Gandhara) to Manipur and Assam in the north east to Srilanka in the South...(most probably would have included Kashmir also as it is towards the south of Himalayas). These separate kingdoms were united under one umbrella called Bharata Varsha. The Hindi name for India Bharat is derived from it. It is named after a great King Bharatha who is believed to have lived around 3500 BC.

    It is considered pre-historic as the western historians had several constrains in placing the cronological dates due to their Christian belief that the Earth was created by god around 4000 BC. Also they did not want to believe the sophisticated nature of a different culture during those times. This made them put the Aryan invasion at around 1500 BC but in fact if at all there was an invasion it was much before that as there are various proofs that the Indus valley civilization at present day Pakistan around 3000 BC was not just Dravidian but also Aryan and there are discovery's (but not conclusive evidence) of similar civilizations like the Indus valley across India around 3000 BC.

    Bharata Varsha also finds a place in the scriptures believed to have coined around 2500 BC (Western sources claim the scriptures were coined around 1500 BC due to the same constrains mentioned above).

    Hence India is not a superficial entity that can be pulled, pushed and raped around for ever by everybody as was done for the past 5 to 10 centuries.

    Even when western sailors like vasco-da-gama discovered trade route to India via sea...India was reffered as India and not by the small small kingdoms. India then was know as the wealthiest country in the world.

    It is vicious thinking by some crooked elements to have a vision to disintegrate India. Up to the extent of Kashmir can at least be thought of due to its disputed nature, but anything further than that is plain crap.

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  84. The credit (discredit) of wrong/incomplete history being taught should go to the below:

    1. Western Historians due to their Jelously and insecurity.

    2. Distorted history taught in Pakistan school books such as Moguls being the first to unite India ignoring the Mauryan's (due to their own agenda)

    3. Most importantly, Our own Congress Party who ruled India for most period have tried their best to make the likes of Gandhi and Nehru the only heroes of India as they belonged to the Indian National Congress. They conveniently failed to give as much importance to the other heroes produced by India throughout her history.

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  85. "Even when western sailors like vasco-da-gama discovered trade route to India via sea...India was reffered as India and not by the small small kingdoms. India then was know as the wealthiest country in the world."

    Every one wants to trade with the European Union these days and we always say, the European Union is a strong economy nowadays n people risk everything to migrate there but that does not mean Europe is one country....hope you get the logic.

    "It is vicious thinking by some crooked elements to have a vision to disintegrate India. Up to the extent of Kashmir can at least be thought of due to its disputed nature, but anything further than that is plain crap."

    You are entitled your UTOPIAN views my friend but lemme quote you here...."The kingdoms ranged from Kandhahar in Afganistan (Then known as Gandhara) to Manipur and Assam in the north east to Srilanka in the South...(most probably would have included Kashmir also as it is towards the south of Himalayas). These separate kingdoms were united under one umbrella called Bharata Varsha."


    Pakistan- Separate country
    Burma- Separate country
    Afghanistan- Separate country
    Bangladesh-Separate country(Ha ha ha your country is helping break/disintegrate itself further)
    Sri-Lanka-Separate country

    Kashmir- Broken into three parts, One part under Pakistan control, One Part with under Chinese control and one controlled by the Slum dogs.

    Andaman and Nicobar is closer to Thailand than it is to India and yet it remains under your control.......??????????????? THANK the British for that.

    Once again let us Kashmiris decide what we want, let us practice our right to self determination as promised by your Prime Minister at the United Nations just like how you conducted a plebiscite in Junagadh. Be just n be fair cause isn't that what the Glorious Indian democracy should be??????

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  86. continued....
    "The credit (discredit) of wrong/incomplete history being taught should go to the below:

    1. Western Historians due to their Jelously and insecurity".

    Ha ha ha, you Indians sure are infallible in all you do and that's why you are always politically correct.

    "2. Distorted history taught in Pakistan school books such as Moguls being the first to unite India ignoring the Mauryan's (due to their own agenda)"

    Everyone distorts history to suit their interests much like how you have mentioned Maurya, Mughals n Asoka or Bharata n conveniently forgot to mention about thousands of years/centuries which transpired in between.

    My friend, history is not just believing in the rule of four kings who after killing hundreds of thousands established four particular dynasties.....history is more about mentioning what happened between 3500 BC n now taking out a few hundred years of rule when certain regions of the subcontinent were under one ruler.

    Regards

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  87. @A3
    n u still have not answered my main questions so I am assuming that U have no answers.....

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  88. a3,
    feel free to response to earlier assertion that pakistan is the south asian aggressor.

    anarchy and disunity are two different things. one is the absence of laws and governance... the other is degree of oneness in a national context.

    chinaar,

    a3 doesn't have any answers just nonsensical questions and false accusations backed up by reliable sources such as wiki!

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  89. @ Chinaar and Pak Solidarity
    Comon guys, you are takin this A3 too seriously. He is just vomitting his Indian greatness on us, ungrateful people. I want him to celebrate his Indian greatness further and tell him:
    Indian greatness lies in
    Dharavi slums of Mumbai
    Jammuna Par Slums of Delhi
    Kolkatta Slums
    India greatness lies in
    Demolished Mosques
    Trampled with Hindu boots, smoked walls of Golden temple of Amritsar.
    Tank runned Harminder Sahib
    Ransacked churches and torched priests.
    Indian greatness lies in
    Muslim pregnant women cut open and unborn Muslim fetuses hoisted on Hindu trishuls.
    Culling of Muslims in Gujrat, Bombay, UP, Bhagalpul and Karnatak and Assam and so on.
    Bulldozed Muslim houses of Old Delhi.
    Hunting on Muslim youth of Kashmir.
    Massacre of more the one hundred thousand innocent people of Kashmir
    Raping of 8800 Muslim women of Kashmir.
    Indian greatness lies in
    Un marked graves of Kashmir
    Blasted houses of Kashmir
    Sodomised children in prison cells of Kashmir
    Tortured and rendered useless prisoned youth of Kashmir.
    Trampled Motherhood of Kashmir
    Indian Greatness lies in
    Hate Muslims
    Hate Sikhs
    Hate Christians
    Hate Dalits
    Indian Greatness lies in
    Indian Fallacy
    Indian Brahamin Mentality
    Indian Bla Bla Bla and Bla
    India Smoke Screen therapy.
    That is India, the great.

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  91. @ Kashmir centre and Pak Solidarity

    Very right bro's.....Cow belt Indians are brainwashed hindutva idiots who will never understand logic n reasoning. They have just been brainwashed into believing that they r always right n everyone else is always wrong....nothing much we can do about that except prepare ourselves mentally/physically for more atrocities to come towards us poor people.......cause its "EITHER THEIR WAY OR NO WAY".

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  92. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  93. As per wiki, Hindu is a geographical term given by Persia for the people who lived across Indus River of North western part of the sub continent and it was only in 17 Century and with the arrival of East India Company geographically term Hindu / Indus was referred to as India.


    As Hindu / India is a geographically term used for the people who live across Indus
    River are the original inhabitants of India. Indus river originates from Tibet plateau
    Runs through Ladakh, Jammu & Kashmir, Northern Areas (Gilgit-Baltistan), and then arabian sea. The Indus system is largely fed by the snows and glaciers of the Himalayas, Karakoram and the Hindu Kush ranges of Tibet, the state of Jammu and Kashmir and the Northern Areas of Pakistan respectively. Chenab, Ravi, Sutlej, Jhelum, Beas are some of the tributaries of Indus river.

    Well Indus Valley civilization is the oldest civilization of India Harappa and Mohenjo-daro, date back to around 3300 BC, and represent some of the largest human habitations of the ancient world. The Indus Valley Civilization extended from across Pakistan, with an upward reach from east of Jhelum River to Ropar on the upper Sutlej. The coastal settlements extended from Sutkagan Dor at the Pakistan,Iran border to kutch in easternmost Pakistan as well as extending into the westernmost states of modern-day India

    Aryans were nomad tribe they came latter they were unculture and uncivilized whileas Harrapa and Mohenjo-daro of Indus Valley civilization were well planned urban cities / towns. Infact Shiv Sena, Bajrang Dal, VHP et al. run through in them the barbaric blood of Aryans who are now working on the so called Hinduvata Agenda.

    If we go through above and revive the Indus Valley civilization we have to integrate the above places into one unit and proudly make UNITED STATES of INDUS so that true Indus will be emerge again.

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  94. In reply to Jhiya post dated March 09, 2010 2:24 AM:

    It's not India, but Pakistan (officially an Islamic state) that claims Kashmir solely on the basis of religion. India (officially a secular state) neither claims Kashmir on the basis of religion or language and nor will allow Kashmir to separate either on the basis of religion or language.

    Just like any other area in India, Kashmir has always been part of India and and Indian cultural identity for at least 5,000 years.

    Just like any other area in India, Kashmir has been ruled by both local/non-local/big/small kings of different religions and was part of big and small kingdoms. If Kashmir had cultural contacts with central asia, so did India in general (as you said Mughal's originally came from central asia). Indian cultural contact with central asia also predates Mughal era.

    So we see no reason to hand over Kashmir to Pakistan that has forcefully and illegally occupied of a part of Kashmir and has illegally given a portion of Kashmir to China.

    With respect to grievances in Kashmir Valley, I will repeat what I have said earlier: India is a diverse country with a long history and grievances do come up from time to time. Indian identity as a country is based on how such issues are resolved rather than giving the "right of self determination" to each individual community whenever some grievance comes up.

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  95. >
    > give me one particular instance when
    > Kashmiris > like Indians in the cow belt
    > stood up against
    > the Britishers and demanded that Britishers
    > should leave Kashmir?
    >

    For the third time, the ruler of Kashmir were cooperating with British, so Britishers didn't have to directly enter or administer Kashmir and hence the people of Kashmir didn't have to revolt against the British.

    >
    > Who was our freedom
    > struggle directed against?
    >

    That depends upon when you started fighting for freedom in the long history (5000 years) that Kashmir has been associated with India. Which time period are you referring to?

    Plus keep in mind that currently only Kashmir valley is fighting, the rest of J&K is quite ok with rest of India.

    >
    > Why should we
    > Kashmiris celebrate August 15 as Independence
    > day? and what/who did we Kashmiris achieve
    > this independence from?
    >

    Many Kashmriies were actively involved in Indian Independence struggle. Perhaps you could celebrate that on August 15th, a Kashmiri became the first PM of India?

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  96. >
    > Andaman and Nicobar is closer to Thailand
    > than it is to India and yet it remains under
    > your control.......??????????????? THANK the
    > British for that.
    >

    No can't thank the British. Look up the history of Thiland, Indonesia, Combodia, Vietnam, Singapore. Do you know what the word "Singapore" means?

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  97. @PakSolidarity

    >
    > one is the absence of laws and
    > governance...
    > the other is degree of oneness in a national
    > context.
    >

    Exactly my point.

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  98. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  99. @Jhiya,

    >
    > If we go through above and revive the Indus
    > Valley civilization we have to integrate the
    > above places into one unit and proudly make
    > UNITED STATES of INDUS so that true Indus
    > will be emerge again.
    >

    If I would have said that I would have been labelled as a Hinduvata agent :-).

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  100. @A3
    Appreciate on agreeing upon the United States of Indus that will include Indian part of Punjab and Himachal bordering Delhi and clipping some parts of Gujarat.

    Keeping in view of the above facts the power and centre of gravity will be in Karachi or Sindh that is in present day Pakistan.

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  101. A3
    you can remove post but not the reality.
    bring your original post back.
    and above post of mine is in reply to your
    earlier post you removed.

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  102. A3
    ...It's not India, but Pakistan (officially an Islamic state) ......

    pak is claiming kashmir on geographical (Indus) terms not religious. All rivers that originate from kashmir runs down to Pakistan it is only Hinduvata propoganda.

    whileas India is claiming Kashmir on the basis of instrument of accession between by maharaja (a hindu) and Delhi. So who is communal India or Pakistan. Destruction of Babri Mosque and torching of churches and christian properties alongwith women and children and masscare in gujarat, we know how secular, harmonious, uncommunal and diverse India is.

    ..... Kashmir has always been part of India and and Indian cultural identity for at least 5,000 years....

    in historic perspective above are your white lies which does not hold any ground.

    cannot blame you, it is indian version of distorting historical facts and NCERT text who has to be blamed.


    ....Kashmir has been ruled by both local/non-local/big/small kings of different religions..

    kashmir was part of bigger empire in some 3500 B.C even india was part of bigger empire of Mughals and then British Empire but by force of and sword now gun, such govts. are called puppets where they take dictations like slave to a masters like present day small time Princess of Kashmir Abudullah.

    That does not mean that British and Mongalians can claim India.

    ..... no reason to hand over Kashmir to Pakistan that has forcefully and illegally occupied of a part of Kashmir and has illegally given a portion of Kashmir to China.....

    I totally Agree with you. Let us unite Kashmir an Indepdent Kashmir, my dream our dream our vision our goal.



    ....India is a diverse country with a long history and grievances do come up from time to time. Indian identity as a country is based on how such issues are resolved rather than giving the "right of self determination" to each individual community whenever some grievance comes up...

    same old concoted, fictitious, stories based on fraud.

    Kashmiris grevices can be redressed only by holding referendum in line with UN Resolution.
    Got it !

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  103. @ A-3

    "For the third time, the ruler of Kashmir were cooperating with British, so Britishers didn't have to directly enter or administer Kashmir and hence the people of Kashmir didn't have to revolt against the British".

    Agreed so that means Kashmiris did not rebel or fight the British.

    "That depends upon when you started fighting for freedom in the long history (5000 years) that Kashmir has been associated with India. Which time period are you referring to?"

    My friend, now don't be so naive, Of course I am referring to the freedom movement started against the tyrant Maharaja-nowhere in India, I REPEAT NOWHERE IN INDIA WERE A PEOPLE FIGHTING AGAINST THE LOCAL MAHARAJA's, AGAIN NOWHERE.....ONLY IN KASHMIR WAS A FREEDOM MOVEMENT STARTED AGAINST A HINDU KING WHOSE INFAMOUS RULE LEFT THE PEOPLE WITH NO CHOICE BUT TO REBEL. This peaked into the quit Kashmir movement of 1931(way before independence).

    So in India, we see nothing but the continuation of the tyrannical rule of the Maharaja. By the way,once gain in our almost 40,000 years of history...Kashmir has been ruled by Indian kings after much slaughtering for approx 1200 Years....i.e. BhArat Varsha through the reigns of Asoka, Chandragupta, Akbar n the Indians etc does not cover more than 1200 years....WHAT WERE WE DOING FOR MORE THAN 38000 years is something you will never understand.

    The tyrannical Maharaja and his continuation(the slum dogs) is against whom our liberation struggle is directed against....in other words the cunning Maharaja who was in fear of loosing his WEALTH,ESTATES,BANK BALANCE,PALACES at the hands of the Kashmiri peasants signed the Instrument of accession in favour of India when India guaranteed him full rights to his properties etc. So the Indians are nothing but a conniving lot who instead of siding with the people took the cunning tyrants side.

    AGAIN, in you we see a continuation of the Maharajas tyranny n therefore only after u r gone will we be independent.

    "Many Kashmriies were actively involved in Indian Independence struggle. Perhaps you could celebrate that on August 15th, a Kashmiri became the first PM of India?"

    Kashmiri Hindus comprise less than 1% of our population and have always been a very strong cult in Kashmir, they have always sided with the perpetrators right from the time of Akbar. They never cared about the 99% peasants anyway....But do go through the paragraph above again n u will realize who we were directing our freedom struggle against.

    "Plus keep in mind that currently only Kashmir valley is fighting, the rest of J&K is quite ok with rest of India".

    If you are so sure then WHY NOT HOLD A PLEBISCITE, I am sure Doda, Poonch,Bhaderwah,Kargil,Ladakh,Kisthwar,Reasi etc will vote in favor of u.....anyways....when the Indians were fighting the British, did the Indians fight in every nook n cranny of the Indian subcontinent????

    Again, your answers leave a lot to be desired cause they contain no substance but just age old hindutva hegemony.

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  104. "No can't thank the British. Look up the history of Thailand, Indonesia, Cambodia, Vietnam, Singapore. Do you know what the word "Singapore" means?"

    Oops sorry I forgot how ungrateful the slummies on a usual basis are n therefore lemme suggest that India approach the UN and stake a claim on Thailand, Indonesia, Cambodia,Malaysia, Vietnam n Singapore cause u know what...the word singapore has an Indian meaning...ha ha ha u r hopeless A-3.....n what will you call this Maha Akhand Bharat????

    Lemme Guess United States of Southeast Asia that have had independent status for a millenia but because once upon a time a certain Indian King ruled there, they have to join Bharat Mata fold. Wonder how the present day Britishers or the French would feel about that.

    Ha Ha ha.....your comments are not just nonsensical now but quite comic too.

    Enjoy your day n keep killing innocent Kashmiris cause that's what slumdogs r best at.

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  105. @ Chinar... Nobody know what totally happened from 3500 BC but one thing is sure that the smaller kingdoms were not divided on linguistic lines but based on a Kings influence. So do we today divide India now based on those kingdoms?

    The reason why Liguistic divisions of state were favored by Nehru is so that there will be an identity within a larger identity of India. Patel had favored a straight line division of India which was opposed by Nehru. Agreed there are a few parts of the original Bharat which are now not part of India. So let it be we dont want to disturb status que and create problems.

    Also the views of few fools like thakrey are not shared by others. There is a lot of nationalism even among non hindi speaking people. For example Tamils hate hindi but at the same time they love India.

    you accuse A3 for supporting India. Is it a sin for considering being an Indian first and then a Kashmiri. When Sachin Tendulkar had made a statement that he was Indian first and then a Marathi he was criticized by thakrey. So what is the difference between him and you guys?

    @ Kashmir Centre you have beautifully highlighted all the drawbacks of India but tell me in how many countries the minorities have become Presidents and Prime ministers. There are so many super sucessful Muslims like Reheman saab or a zakir hussain. Sharuk's father was one of those muslims who had left Pakistan in favour of settling in India during Partition. See what India has made of him? He has more hindu fans than muslims.

    When India plays cricket and if a Irfan Pathan or a Zaheer Kahn or a Mohammed Kaif or a Yousuf Patan hits a six everybody is happy that an Indian has hit a six nobody thinks for a sec that a muslim has hit a six.

    very very few people share the views of fundamantals like Bajarang Dal. During the Gujarat riots I have seen on TV a group of Hindu Monks demanding and campaigning for the banning of VHP though it was the same monks who were burnt alive just before the riots. Most people here compare these hindu fundemntals like VHP to the few muslims and christains who are blindly against hindus and keep using the words like hindutva agents and other hate words. For us both are two faces of the same coin. We also ridicule groups like Bajarang Dal, comparing them to Taliban.

    Dont keep repeating the same points like Gujarat and Ayodya again and again when you run out of things to say. Trouble happen every where. America has seen the slavery of Blacks, There are worst violence seen elsewhere. During Ayodya riots in the city where I live, a womb of hindu pregnant women was cut open by Muslims but that was reported only in 1 local news paper and not by others to avoid more communal flareups. Events such as this, murders, torture, Rape etc have happened through out the world wherever barbarians have existed.


    I beleive India has less to thank British compared to what the british have to apologize to India. There are lot of points that I cant cover but in-spite of a 3/4th united country, English language and some infrastructure, they have looted the wealth of India and created vast phycological and economical damage to Indians due to their oppression.

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  106. Continued...

    @ Jhiya, You are welcome to fantasize about a united states of Indus :-) as this culture belongs to you as much as us but I believe that it is not just a Dravidian culture but also an Aryan one and Aryans were part of India since a very very long time (not since 1500 BC). Aryans were people of very advanced scientific thought as seen in the vedas and cannot be Nomads. Also "yes" I aggree that the word Hinduism never existed prior to 17th century as it was called Sanatana Dharma (Universal Faith) since it was never ment to be a religion but just guiding principles and knowledge for all with the liberty of an individual to follow it as per what is best suited for him.


    I see political corruption and Poverty as the main problems of India and dont see any threat to national integrity inspite of the separatist movements, as a overwhelming majority of us (Including a non hindi speaking Dravidian like me) want to remain part of this diverse country called India. A country that has seen ups and downs like no other country.

    One more thing I dont understand is that why did pakistan fail to withdraw troops from Kashmir as per UN requirement when Nehru has promised a plebisite? It was also they who wanted the partisan on religious lines not Nehru..

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  107. These two and a million like them have inspired me to write a work of non-fiction on the main page.

    Arguing with these leeches is a waste of time.

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  108. @PakSolidarity

    I agree, its a waste of time.....they just keep adhering to their Bharat Maata propaganda.... what else can u expect from cow piss drinkers.

    http://boingboing.net/2009/02/12/hindu-extremists-pro.html

    http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE51B1N820090212

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  109. >
    > I agree, its a waste of time
    >

    @Chinnar,

    Discussing the impossible is always a waste of time. Once the impossible points are eliminated there is only common ground left to discuss.

    By the way, your separatist leaders are already seeking common ground with GoI :-) at least that is what recent propaganda literature (i.e news) points to :-)

    Best Wishes.

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  110. agreeing in disagreement.
    saying in Kashmir:-
    "Kani wasai pous batta beni dous"

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  111. @ Pak Solidarity & Chinaar,

    Cool down friends, let us keep this discussion healthy and not use words such as leeches and cow piss drinkers and generalize it to everybody. Dont show your Bajarang Dal or Taliban side of you :-)
    (Which I believe you are not). Did I generalize and call everybody a terrorist?

    We are born to love our country and defend it when there is propaganda against it. But in my heart I wish the very best for you guys and also for Kashmir and Pakistan.

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  112. THWADI MA DA FUDDEYA KASHMIRI GANDU, TUM JAO PAKISTAN, KHAO UNKI TATTI, KASHMIR HAMARA HAI BEHN KE LODO, AUR TUM AGAR BINA KAHSMIR LIYE WAHA GAYE TOH VO TUMHE APNI TATTI BHI NAHI KHANE DENGE, VO KHUD USKO KHATE HAI, BHUKE BEGGARS, BOTH OF YOU.

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  113. only Day justice will be previaled check more stories at https://www.humansofjandk.com

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