Kashmir Truth Be Told Blog
Yus neereth gassan, pheereth cha yevaano: morda che gassan zinde (Kashmiri saying)

4/14/09

Psychological price

Sometime back I asked a fellow blogger of the ~Kashmir~ blog why he is not as regular in posting new blogs as he used to. He replied at the time that writing about Indian oppression on a regular basis just wears you out after a while. What he said is accurate, and anyone being unfortunate enough to suffer through a continuos barrage of bad news one after the other can empathize. It is like receiving shocking news of the death of a loved-one day after day, everyday. Consider how harrowing that experience would be. Kashmiris consider themselves part of one big family; therefore, the murders, torture, rapes and kidnapping by the Indian occupation forces are in fact like receiving news of the death of a loved-one day after day, everyday. While most Kashmiris are directly affected by Indian oppression in one way or other, some are better able to cope with the occupation than others. Those who are incapable of desensitizing themselves to this deluge of news about atrocities, humiliation, killings, rapes, and the terror unleashed by the Indians here unfortunately take the extreme step of ending their own lives.


Pick up any newspaper and the only news making headlines these days is about who the pro-India parties decided to give their mandate to contest in the upcoming elections for the Indian Parliament . Who cares? 


A few days back there was commotion in the news world when Sajjad Lone decided to contest the Lok Sabha elections. The Hurriyet Conference has called for a complete boycott of these elections. I could not get motivated enough to write about Sajad Lone's decision to contest these elections. Therefore I will leave it at that.


How am I supposed to be motivated about writing about another set of these farcical elections when people, unable to cope with Indian oppression, are resorting to suicide. Last year, I had written about this pandemic ravaging through the valley which seems to be more prevalent among females. Why this steep increase in suicide rates in Kashmir? And why is it more prevalent among females? (click here to read last year's post)


I mentioned earlier that reading about stories such as these just robs a person of all creativity. You can decide for yourself which story deserves more attention. Click here to read the news story.

59 comments:

  1. true - at present anyone living in kashmir can become insane - that is reason why you can not see facts that it is kasmirs own leaders who are responsible for this - kasmir is lucky still to be with india otherwise my dear brother you may not be even able to write this blog
    sucide would not have been required
    things are worse but if all of us think sensibily things can get better but not with false independence which will bring more misery

    ReplyDelete
  2. My Dear Koshur,
    I truly empathize with your situation.But rather than seeing the dark clouds, I see a silver lining.The bad things are on the decline for sure.
    The people who commit suicide are weak, as weak as the suicide bombers of pakistan and taliban or as weak as the killers who started the killings,mayhem in the name of Islam in 1989.
    God sent us here with a gift of life and gave us the power of what we want to do with it. If we choose death(suicide) and become the same reason for others, we are actually going against the will of God.Don't you agree?

    If we don't agree with anything,we have to find different ways to fight it, but there is no authority accept God's to decide the time of death.
    Taliban and Pakistan may have different interpretation of Islam on this point.

    Current state of affairs in Kashmir may very well qualify to be defined as oppression by Kashmiris.
    At the same time,We sincerely need to ask this question to ourselves:
    Did the Indian state start it?
    How was Kashmir situation (oppression in our definition) different from any other state in India prior to 1989.
    Indian state placed Article 370 as per the people's wishes. Did that really help kashmiris or did it actually lead to kashmir being stopped from integrating with the rest of the Indian population, which would helped build the love and trust in a Kashmiri in the same way as it developed between a punjabi, haryanvi,gujrati, marathi,kanadiga,tamilian, malyalee,bengalee, odisi,bhaiyajee, bihari,assamee,rajasthani,delhiite and so on.
    Don't you see a co-relation here, BJP or any other party which you may define as a Hindutva party, they started growing in size only after 1990, why not before that(in 1984, BJP had 2 seats in the LS). Don't you see the rise as re-actionary to what started from 1980's onwards, sikh terrorism in punjab, islamic in kashmir (both supported by Pakistan).
    There is nice article by Javed Naqvi in DAWN

    http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/columnists/jawed-naqvi-congress-created-pakistan%2C-pakistan-created-the-bjp

    Since this is a pakistani journalist, may be his language might be more understandable to kashmiris.

    As i have mentioned in some of my previous comments, if Kashmiris start respecting State laws, rather than wasting time in "Peaceful Demonstrations" (intentional pun intended) and start working towards making their and their families life better, it would go a long way in building a good and progressive society and then you won't see the oppression and it would be as peaceful as it was prior to 1989.
    Kashmir has a lot to catchup on what it missed from the last 20 yrs of self destruction. we dont want to make kashmir another pakistan or afghanistan, Do we?

    -corekashmiri

    ReplyDelete
  3. For Kashmiris it is better to die out of hunger instead of being under Indian occupation. Kashmiris do not want to be with India at this time. Period..If Kashmir is an integral part of India, why do u have United Nations Millatry observers in Srinagar? If Kashmir is integral part of India, what has Indian govt done to unite the Azad Kashmir with the main Kashmir? Nothing.....India will never do anything as India is happy with this part of kashmir which it got through cheating and using force. Azad Kashmir Zindabad.....ajaztam@hotmail.com

    ReplyDelete
  4. @ all above
    There are people who are writing blogs in a country like Iran adn S Arabia too. The issue is why this forced marriage when Kashmiris don't want to live with India.

    By the way I have written another post on my blog, Kashmir-truth-be told, you are welcome to comment there.

    regards

    ReplyDelete
  5. @Ajaz Ahmed,
    Well why haven't you at least done what you have mentioned in the first line of your comment.Lets not include rest of the Kashmiris in it.
    @kashmirview
    It may be your view of forced marriage.
    I don't want to delve into history again(u guys seemed to have discovered a new history in last 5-7 years now) and discuss the same argument which has been done to death so many times here, that everyone is sick of its stink.

    @koshur
    keep up the good work
    regards
    corekashmiri

    ReplyDelete
  6. To the anonymous poster above - Javed Naqvi is an Indian journalist, and not a Pakistani one.

    @kashmirviews
    Most of the iranian and saudi bloggers are expatriates. People have been arrested in Iran for committing the crime of "blogging". Less said the better about Saudi bloggers and Saudi Arabia in general.

    You may think of it as "forced marriage" and you are certainly welcome to your point of view (it is a democracy after all). But to call that as a viewpoint of ALL kashmiris is gross generalization and untenable.

    - LiberalM

    ReplyDelete
  7. @koshur,

    Suicides are bad news. But I don't see how you arrived at the quick conclusion that all the suicides can be blamed on India's presence in the Valley. There are multiple reasons why people commit suicide - it could be a family situation, it could be an affair, it could be poor economic situation, it could be a combination of hundred other different reasons. I am not suggesting that Indian Army's presence has not contributed to any suicides. All I am suggesting is that your blog post does not indicate how you arrived at that conclusion and that conclusion alone.

    - LiberalM

    ReplyDelete
  8. ust a link for your brains from oppressed female fighting for her rights

    [Link deleted]

    kashmir is not part of india but it is in intrests of kashmir to be with india - you are trying to cut the tree which holds you under its shade
    and it sonly few kashmiri's who want this not all kashmiri's are fools

    ReplyDelete
  9. to above anonymous

    Dont bother posting links of hate websites over here. They will be deleted anyways.

    ReplyDelete
  10. @liberalM
    yes there could be multitudes of reasons for suicides and they happen all around the world. But when the numbers are at an average of one per day, we could be forgiven for blaming the Indian terror tactics here.

    ReplyDelete
  11. @liberalM
    expatriate bloggers from saudi, iran etc

    if the Indians even had a whiff of who some of us anonymous bloggers were, we would be rottting in Indian jails under the POTA or PSA or some other reason. And for what reason is Shabir Shah still under detention?

    our anonymity is reason enough to laugh at your democracy. the continued arrest and detention of peaceful pro-freedom activists is ample evidence.

    ReplyDelete
  12. @corekashmiri
    so what you are saying is that as long as Kashmiris behave as subservient and docile captives, everything will be fine. It is just the pesky issue of freedom and independence that Kashmiris want that India is forced to resort to terrorist activities against Kashmiris. Therefore, should Kashmiris behave properly, India will also stop terrorizing us.

    I wonder why Indians wanted independence from Britain then? If Indians had behaved properly, the British were not harming anyone either! The arguments that you are using while lecturing us are exactly what the British used to lecture Indian freedom fighters with. Click here for context about what I mean.

    ReplyDelete
  13. @Koshur,

    In my native Maharashtra from the suicides average about 10 a day (not 1 a day but 10 a day). Of course Maharashtra is 10 times bigger so it is about the same rate as in Kashmir. Do you see me jumping to a conclusion that it is due to the presence of Indian Army in Maharashtra ? These are sad facts but considering that the suicide rate is about the same as in Maharashtra, I don't honestly see how you can jump to such conclusions.

    - LiberalM

    ReplyDelete
  14. @koshur,

    Blogging is a generally an anonymous activity to begin with. So your being anonymous has nothing to do with the State.

    Think about this. Can you have a bunch of people in Iran or Saudi Arabia who could form a conference called Hurriyet whose avowed aim is secession ? These people openly go about their lives, have their meetings, give public speeches, even get operated on in Delhi's hospitals - all the while pursuing a secessionist agenda. What is that ? They are perfectly fine and alive, aren't they. Do you know why ...? Because they are not carrying guns when they are making their arguments.

    Try doing that in Iran or Saudi Arabia ? Forget about openly flouting secessionist views, blogging against the state, or state policies, or council of guardians is a CAPITAL crime in Iran - punishable in some case by death. Less said the better about S Arabia.

    - LiberalM

    ReplyDelete
  15. @liberalM

    Until someone does a scientific study of the reasons of these suicides to disprove this theory, and determines any other causes of a majority of these suicides, it is safe to rely on our gut feeling. Because it is known that somehow the rate of psychiatric cases, mental illnesses, depression and suicides in Kashmir skyrocketed in the past 20 year. Therefore, anyone can join the dots together and point the finger at Indian terror techniques used in Kashmir.

    ReplyDelete
  16. @koshur,

    Considering how you are justifying the demand for Kashmiri independence to corekashmiri what would happen if every human being started asking for his/her independent state with his/her own rules and laws. Wouldn't that be a perfectly justifiable demand as well ?

    What makes every human being's demand for an independent nation (of his/her very own) any less justifiable than /some/ Kashmiris' demand for independence ? Would you let that happen in Kashmir valley ?

    Ultimately Koshur it boils down to this. Some Kashmiris think that Kashmir valley should be an independent country. Most Indians believe that Kashmir in its entirety is theirs historically, legally, and culturally, and if /some/ Kashmiris don't like it then those /some/ Kashmiris can leave.

    Britain's argument about holding on to India was weak. Most importantly, British /people/ did not believe that they owned India historically, legally, and culturally. Hence independence to India was a relatively easier matter for the British (it was only an economic and political decision, not a historical, legal and/or cultural one).

    - LiberalM

    ReplyDelete
  17. @koshur,

    As you said, unless someone does a scientific study the best thing anyone can say is that "there has been in increase in the rate of psychiatric cases, mental illnesses, depression, and suicides in Kashmir Valley in the past 20 years". Period.

    Without controlling for other factors such as the rise of militancy and armed foreigners in the state, the subsequent loss of economic opportunities, the social chaos that ensued, coming to the kind of conclusion that you arrived at is scientifically untenable.

    - LiberalM

    ReplyDelete
  18. Indian security forces raped 9,800 women (only reported ones, unreported case are numerous), Widowed 25,000 women and orphaned 40,000 children in the past 20 years. Besides this more than 1,00,000 people were killed ruthlessly. Thousands of houses burnt and destroyed, Thousands of men disappeared and many more are languishing in Jails without a trail. Those who are tried are not getting a fair trail. We are not allowed to protest peacefully. Curfews are imposed frequently without any reason.
    So all those above advocating for India are having an ostrich head approach to the facts. You cant hide the truth. We are living like slaves and Indian state is treating us like garbage. Kashmir belongs to Kashmiris and Kashmiris dislike India for the crimes which it has committed here under the garb of fighting militancy. So India is not an option for us. We have invsted too much of blood for our Kashmir and we cannot forget that. We have only one choice and that choice is Freedom. We are ready to suffer more for that and every sacrifice for our land shall be counted. Sacrifices never go waste. Be reminded.

    ReplyDelete
  19. The only difference between Iran & Saudi AND India is that while as Iran & Saudi openly use the force , Indian govt keeps the sword at the back invisible from all and uses in dark (censor) to kill kashmiris. Thus Iran and SA are less to be blamed than India since India TALKS about democracy and practices dictatorship in Kashmir.

    ReplyDelete
  20. @liberalM

    You can try to blame the suicides (as hindutva people tend to always) on Pakistan, militants, foreign fighters, or even the "global economic meltdown." You can try to spin it whichever way you want. But read Kashmir Center's above comment. The victims of rapes by your terrorist army, by the mothers and sisters of those your barbaric army murdered in cold blood or those who were kidnapped by your country and still remain missing would tend to disagree with you. The moment your occupation of Kashmir ends, peace will return to Kashmir and the suicides will stop.

    ReplyDelete
  21. @liberalM

    I am glad your arguments are getting weaker, as they should, because India's occupation of Kashmir never was based on moral and democratic principles but rather on hollow sloganeering that Kashmir has been historically a part of India, and the annoying "atoot ang" argument.

    First of all, Kashmir has never historically been part of India. The only time it was under Indian rule was during the Mughals.

    I give little credence to fables written in a book of fiction such as Rajtarangini, which mentions that Kashmir was ruled by a Mauryan king for a brief period some two thousand years ago. Indians have been pandering tales written in this book as though they were engraved in stone. What India is doing with Kashmir's history to justify their occupation is no different to how China is trying to rewrite Tibet's history to justify continued China's occupation.

    Legally, India's case is as weak as the case of British rule over India was. The Raja's of India had legally signed and handed over their territory to Queen Victoria. So why is this not legal? and why is it any different to how hari singh of Kashmir signed the accession document?

    ReplyDelete
  22. @Kashmir Center

    Look, past 20 years has been an ongoing tragedy in Kashmir. But Indian para-military forces went in /only/ when an armed insurgency funded and supported mostly by our rapidly unraveling neighbour started in the valley. When there is an armed struggle, there is going to be tragedy all around. Many Kashmir valley residents cheered at the early 'victories' of the militants over "enemy" India. so now I see no point in you crying over the tragedy that ensued. You can stop further tragedy by stopping "peaceful" demonstrations that start and end with stone-pelting.

    You may still want your "Freedom", but without any idea of what that means, without a leadership that can deliver it, without the willingness to make sacrifices for it ("we will eat grass" rhetoric which only applies to everyone else but you), I don't know how you are going to get what you want. In the absence of that clarity of purpose and direction, most of you appear to want to just move on in life.

    Sooner or later, most of you will realize, that the freedom that you fought for all these past 20 bloody years, was yours to begin with had you dropped the gun from your hands. That is the real tragedy of it all.

    - LiberalM

    ReplyDelete
  23. Liberal....I respect your thoughts but remember that any freedom struggle has ups and downs. There have been black sheep in any movement.Didnt many Indians support British Raj including so called Pro Hindu leaders. We fought with stones till 1989 and then took arms and have reverted back to peaceful demonstrations. In futute if Kashmiris are forced to take up arms again it will be much more devastating than phase I and India will bleed. We are peace loving and have nothing against innocent unbiased Indians. The problem is with the Indian leadership which havd been misleading you by saying that Kashmir is an integral part of India. United Nations big office in the heart of Srinagar is proof that Kashmir does not belong to India. IT is a disputed terrority. If you think majoirty of Kashmiris want to be with India, then why not have a referendum and show the entire world that people of Kashmir want to be remain with India. This will put a seal on this issue and India can claim Azad Kashmir as well.
    Let me know your thoughts. ajaztam@hotmail.com

    ReplyDelete
  24. @koshur

    My arguments getting weaker ? Hardly.

    You may find the "atoot ang" argument annoying but that is how majority of Indians feel about it - whether right or wrong. When people say Kashmir has had a deep Hindu background (normally associated with India), you say that these Hindus were 'different'. When someone says that Kashmiri language is an "INDO-european" language then you have some other non-sensical argument to belt out. When someone points out cultural similarities, then you have something else handy to dish out. Listen, Kashmiris didn't drop out of the sky on to the ground. All of us share deep genetic ancestry. It is ridiculous in this day and age to demand special attention because somehow YOU feel that you are special. It is nothing but mediaeval tribalism. Snap out of it for your own sake and let a majority of your people who have figured this out - live in peace.

    - LiberalM

    ReplyDelete
  25. @Ajaz,

    The UN office in Srinagar is based on a resolution that /India/ asked for. The dispute in question was Pakistan's illegal occupation of Northern Areas and what it euphemistically calls "Azad" Kashmir. The "disputed" territory designation is there because it is a dispute between India and Pakistan - it has nothing to do with independence for Kashmir.

    UN Office in Srinagar should be a constant reminder to Kashmiris of how their brethren across the border were illegally occupied by lashkars from the NWFP and regular troops of the Pakistan Army under whose brutal rule they still remain.

    UN in 1948 was still seen as an idealistic band-aid of sorts for problems between nations. UN ultimately became a forum for big power politics and soon lost its moral authority as a fair arbitrator of disputes.

    - LiberalM

    ReplyDelete
  26. @Ajaz

    When 60% of people vote in elections that monitors around the world (including Kashmiri newspapers and separatist leadership) generally consider free and fair, when 60% of people vote when they are asked to boycott by their so-called leaders, when 60% people vote for candidates who have sworn their allegiance to India, where is the need for a referendum ?

    If some Kashmiris take up arms again (I hope they don't) then those Kashmiris and their sympathizers will pay a heavy price again. The devastation that has already taken place is enough. The innocent lives that have been lost for an utterly senseless cause are enough. Enough is enough and it is time that majority of the people who have expressed an interest in peaceful progress in life should be allowed to live their life their own way. Why isn't their free choice acceptable to you ?

    - LiberalM

    ReplyDelete
  27. LiberalM
    Your replies are funny.
    You have militancy in half of your India. Do your Armymen rape women when Naxalites or ULFA blow their colleagues into pieces in Andhra, Assam, N.E, Jharkhand or Orrisa. Do they kill children and old to avenge the killings of their colleauges. No they dont. In Kashmir when they are attacked by militants, they punish innocent people for that. They kill, rape, burn and torture innocents all the time. Last 20 years have opened our eyes. We have seen enough of your India, its secularism and its democracy. We want India to leave us to our fate now and be assured we will be better off without India.

    ReplyDelete
  28. @Kashmir Center,

    Nothing is funny in my replies. If you see something funny in what I wrote - your sense of humour sure needs some adjustment. Look at what I wrote - Kashmir has been an ongoing tragedy. Period. Do you see anything funny in that ?

    Do ordinary people of Andhra cheer and support the naxalites - no they don't. Do ordinary people of Assam cheer and support ULFA - no they don't. They can clearly see who their friend is and who their enemy is. When ordinary residents of Kashmir started seeing who the real enemy is (militants from across the border and their sympathizers) the violence against ordinary residents of Kashmir Valley started going down as well.

    If you as an ordinary resident of Kashmir do not sympathize with gun carrying militants supported by our neighbour, then violence against you /will/ go down and it /has/.

    - LiberalM

    ReplyDelete
  29. Hi Again,

    @LiberalM,
    Javed Naqvi is a Pakistani journalist(DAWN's correspondent) in New Delhi. I hope you are not mixing him up with MJ Akbar. Initially I also felt the same, his articles are predominantly India based and thats quite natural because of the mentioned reason.

    @Koshur and others
    Well As you have mentioned in your post regarding you friend getting worn out for the reasons you have mentioned.
    Similarly, I am worn out too,discussing the same thing again and again with you guys.

    You guys are in state of complete Denial and that the reason of your suffering and not the so called Indian oppression.

    Its the same denial which the people of Pakistan have and now they have gone through another partition(SWAT) and they don't even know about it. You have SWAT following its own law(Sharia), the rest of pakistan has something different.

    I don't want to repeat again what LiberalM has mentioned and probably he must have done it a zillionth time including myself, but you still don't get the point.
    You are behaving like parrots, something learned as a Rote, but not willing to accept realities.
    I once again dont want to delve into China/Saud/Iran. How I wish you guys would have been there and blogged about them the way you do it here about India. GK like paper being published in such countries. Gimme a break.
    Hurriyat and PDP like anti-state parties in those countries. Can you guys even dream that.

    UN,Refrendum so on and so forth, these are cliches now. if you guys still want to cling to, cling!!
    Asking why they are there and why not is not the question, the question is what have they done there?
    Still LiberalM replied to you on those.
    UN or for that matter any one else dont want a 3rd hot bed of Terrorism after Af-Pak.

    So better to take the bitter pill of reality and get back to restoring your lives. Sooner you do it, sooner the army would be back at the borders and not on our streets.

    I would recommend you guys to read your fellow blogger Tanvir Sadiq, who seems to be some one who really understands the pain of kashmiris and sincerely is doing his bit to remove the pain by discussing some pragmatic and realistic ideas.
    LiberalM, i recommend you to read this guy tanvir. At least you may get some sensible arguments there.
    It seems its bunch of children here.
    regards
    -corekashmiri

    ReplyDelete
  30. Hi Guys,

    Read this one.
    This is an article by cyril almeida, one more Dawn columnist.

    http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/columnists/cyril-almeida-cowering-before-the-taliban

    Now that Indian papers for you are propaganda material, so I would recommend everyone here to read DAWN regularly. Follow their archives too.

    Let their commentators at least help you find the right path.
    Try to see how similar the decline of their society has been to what they started out to do in Kashmir.

    Read their Columnists, their intelligentsia.

    This is my last resource to help you guys out with your mindsets, now that everything else is propaganda, conspiracy theory etc etc.

    regards
    -corekashmiri

    ReplyDelete
  31. @corekashmiri,

    I agree with almost everything you said. And yes, I do read Tanvir's blog.

    Javed (actually Jawed) Naqvi is from Lucknow. Jawed's brother Saeed Naqvi used to write for a long time for the Statesman, Kolkata. Now he (Saeed) works for the Observer research foundation. Both Jawed and Saeed were educated in the prestigious Le Martiniere College in Lucknow.

    - LiberalM

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  32. @koshur,

    I want to thank you for allowing many of us "enemies" to write. It takes enormous courage to listen to an opposite viewpoint and even more so to allow it to be published on your weblog. Thank you.

    - LiberalM

    ReplyDelete
  33. @LiberalM,
    You are right about Jawed. I hadn't googled him yet. Since he is a regular columnist with Dawn, and the kind of articles which is writes, I thought he was a Pakistani.
    Most of his columns in DAWN at the end mention "The writer is Dawn’s correspondent in Delhi."
    So this made me think he is a Pakistani journalist.
    May be I have been away from India for long as I haven't seen him on Indian TV too.

    Well one more reason to feed our friends here about freedom of speech in India.
    regards
    -corekashmiri

    ReplyDelete
  34. @Koshur and others:
    i am quite sure you must have got this warning:
    "Stay away from polls: LeT to people"

    http://www.greaterkashmir.com/today/full_story.asp?Date=19_4_2009&ItemID=41&cat=1
    or
    http://ibnlive.in.com/news/let-threatens-suicide-attacks-during-polls-in-jk/90598-37.html

    I hope the newz item in GK at least is not media propaganda.

    Take care of yourself and your families,in case you decide to vote.

    May God be with you and may the Indian army protect you again.

    Regards
    -corekashmiri

    ReplyDelete
  35. Corekashmiri
    We got warning from Varun Gandhi too to bow our heads in front of Hindu facists otherwise he will cut our hands.
    LeT's warning is not addressed to us, we the majority of Kashmir anyways do not indulge ourselves in anti movement and defeatist activities.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Liberal...You are just being ingnorant about the facts.Kashmiris did participate in elections before 1989, came out in millions in support of freedom struggle in 1990, took arms against Indian opressions after being persecuted by Indian terrorists, again participated in huge rallies , in millions, against Indian occupation not even a year back, and again participated in elections recently. So how does it explian that participation in elections is a vote for India. You like most of Indians are ignorant about Kashmir.Elections are not subtitue for pelebisite. ajaztam@hotmail.com

    ReplyDelete
  37. @Ajaz Ahmed
    Very well said.

    @kashmir center and Ajaz Ahmed
    I also do not appreciate orders from militant groups ordering Kashmiris what to do. They could recommend people by pointing out that the militants will individually not participate in the elections. But by ordering people what to do is harming themselves.

    ReplyDelete
  38. @Koshur,

    Here is some more interesting news:
    http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/nwfp/no-room-for-democracy-in-islam-tnsm-chief--zj

    If you don't act realistically and pragmatically, you may have Geelani/Maulvi speaking the same from Hazratbal.

    Take care you guys.

    -corekashmiri

    ReplyDelete
  39. @Ajaz,

    I don't think I am being ignorant at all. I have never denied that there is a underlying feeling of separatism in a large section of the Kashmiri muslim population. Again, I am not a religious person so don't read any religious mischief here.

    Here is what needs to said on this issue.

    1. Kashmiri muslims do not see separatism as their #1 priority in life (otherwise they would really be preparing to eat grass).
    2. There is no clear idea of what independence means (they seem to range from low prices for milk, meat, and veggies to having US bases on Kashmiri soil)
    3. There is no clear idea of a path to independence (militancy, civil action, disobedience, eating grass, what ?)
    4. There is no coherant 'independence' leadership (hurriyet is a multi-headed hydra that has lost much of its credibility, if it ever had any)
    5. Existing UN resolutions are non-implementable without cooperation from both disputant parties. They require as #1 condition withdrawal of ALL pakistani forces from POK, which is unlikely to happen.
    6. There are no legal avenues in which Kashmiri independence can be achieved. UN resolutions are meaningless as they offer only two choices. Having new resolutions introduced in the UN on a controversial topic such as this is a difficult process.
    7. Armed militancy supported by our neighbour has failed
    8. Kashmiri people have realized that their support (overt and covert) of the militancy has cost them dearly in treasure and blood
    9. When people participate in elections and vote for candidates who have sworn an oath of allegience to the Indian constitution, you lose all credibility to say anything to the contrary from that point on
    10. People's free choice as seen in #9 above should be respected.

    Everyone should move on and should be allowed to move on. Perhaps our generation lacks the wisdom to resolve the issues here. Let us try to be happy and hopeful that in the generations to come, there will be enough wisdom in our neighbourhood that this problem will resolve itself out.

    - LiberalM

    ReplyDelete
  40. this is for the hindutva poster who claims to be a kashmiri muslim woman. (i have not approved their couple of posts)
    I see through your propaganda attempts.

    I will post your latest post if you write the same thing in Kashmiri.
    send me the post again but translated in kashmiri to prove that you are infact Kashmiri. I highly doubt i will hear from you again.

    ReplyDelete
  41. To anonymous
    If Islamic system of governance is a better alternative to western type of democracy, whats the problem in having it. By saying this, I emphasize that Talibanisation is not any Islamic way of governance. Talibanisation has cultural falavour in it rather than Islamic ethos. In one word Taliban is more about Pustoon culture than Islam. Its not the fault of Islam if Taliban enact most of their cultural laws under the garb of Islam for the wider acceptability. I can also post numerous links advocating Islamic shariah for Muslims. I can throw facts on your face narrating how western type of democracies are flawed and unjust. I also read an article in the same Dawn where people living in Swat were showing their satisfaction with Sharia governance. The crime rate has drastically decreased there by 95%. Deliverance of Justice has become easy, cheap and fast.
    In short internet is filled with pros and cons of a selected issue. It is on which side of the argument you are, which matters. You can endlessly pick the negatives on the net and try to prove yourself right. Its your illusion that makes you think, that you have proved your point. For me you are just behaving like a fog machine and please ponder over this to have good sense prevailed upon you and others of your ilk.

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  42. Liberal.....I agree with almost all of your points above. The truth is that we are a small people, weak society, land locked, we throw stones, we do not have oil so that big powers can support us. More importantly we have a big enemy. We are like ants and India is like a drunk Eelephant. So under such circumstances you wil see sort of chaos in our strategy. But keep in mind, we have a firm resolve not to be part of this drunken Elephant, India, who has been responsible for the bloodshed in kashmir, rape of young and old women, torture, occupation of our schools, houses, shoping complexes, children's parks, smuggling of wood, wallnut, dry fruits, medicinal plants...these druken elephants will have to leave one day or die on the soil of Kashmir. Time will decide..... ajaztam@hotmail.com

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  43. @Kashmir Center,
    i agree completely with you on this. So don't you think, the current state of Affairs in Kashmir should be officially supported by people like you to implement Sharia in Kashmir too.
    Now that you are sold to the news that crime rate has drastically decreased(95%), since Sharia was Officially imposed in SWAT, though its not even 15 days. And then shouldn't Kashmir too deserve "Deliverance of Justice has become easy, cheap and fast."
    So why don't you guys Re-start the Kashmir Taliban version, which got started in 1990 with the forced exodus of Kashmiri Pandits(what we witnessed from the loud speakers of Masjids)and now you should implement the Sharia for the local Kashmir population. Local Kashmiris should support it and actually get Mullah Omar and his likes to provide you their vast experience in setting the system up as they have successfully done in Afghanistan, SWAT and NWFP and on their way to rest of Pakistan.

    Now that Democracy has also been defined as Anti-islamic, you shouldn't vote for bijli,sadak, pani issue,which is not related to resolving kashmir issue(sarcasm intended).

    You should mobilize people against voting for the Islamic reason and that may help.

    God bless humanity!!
    -regards
    corekashmiri

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  44. Whatever happens to Kashmir, I hope it will not be worse than the situation it is in today.

    The forces at play in the world are very huge. India is just a minor force, it is readily visible as the face of oppression. But when you look beneath these soldiers, there are a lot more actors in the scene.

    In this age, you don't have to physically occupy a place to impose your will on the country. You can attack with missiles or bombard from planes. You can have an iron grip on the assets of a country by controlling the financial sector. You can starve a country by cutting down energy supplies or water supplies.

    Handling threats of these nature, and ensuring basic decent living standards of all people and protecting their individual freedoms is a very tall ordeal.

    I want all proud Kashmiris to think clearly, and ask themselves from the bottom of their hearts "Are you prepared for all these threats, and can you safeguard the sovereignty and liberty of Kashmiris ?" Just look around the world : pakistan, afghanistan, iraq, iran.. Even big countries of that stature are facing immense problems with their sovereignty. There are only very few major powers today that are truly sovereign : China, Russia, the European Union and above all the United States of America. Even all these countries are interlinked and there are several vested financial interests (banking cartels, oil cartels) that are operating behind the scenes. The gravity of this situation is very high : people are literally enslaved, toiling their days and nights in perennial slavery to rich countries.

    Amidst all this mess, what do you think about other Indians ? Seriously, if India is broken up, we would be nothing more than little republics with no say, just like in South America or in Africa. Not that we are any better today. But just a glimmer of hope persists, that there will be an end to this suffering, and we will enter a period of peace and prosperity where no single individual will have his freedom sacrificed.

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  45. @Ajaz

    There is no doubt that India has acted in erratic ways in Kashmir. But to blame all the tragedy of past 20 years in Kashmir on India is quite unfair.

    Pakistan has played a rather dubious role ("drunken monkey with a flaming torch in hand" to extend your analogy) in this whole affair.

    Kashmiris also have look inwards and contemplate what wrong did they do to invite the wrath of the "drunken elephant" as you call it. There is a saying - "you cannot run with the hares and hunt with the hounds". As Kashmiris supported the armed militants they cannot then turn back and complain "we are being butchered .. our human rights are being violated etc etc". Either you can be a hare or a be hound but you can't be both. Being butchered is part of the same equation: support the armed militants and you will be treated as one and mercilessly hunted down. Get away from armed militancy and slowly but surely peace and human rights will return.

    The "drunken" part of the elephant will leave one day but I won't be as certain as you are about the elephant leaving, particularly when the Elephant is convinced it is already home.

    - LiberalM

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  46. Liberal....Sorry to say, you don't seem to be liberal in real sense.You are justifying terrorism by disatisfied people in India.Babri Masjid was demolished, Muslims should bomb India, Mumbai riots killed innocent Muslims, Mumbai should be bombed,Ghodra riots killed innocent Muslims, Mumbai trains should be attacked and Akshardham should be attacked and so on....Come on.....you are so heartless to say that just because ordinary unarmned people supported millitants, innocents (supporters) are rightly killed by Indian terrorists. Since Milltants killed indian terrorist, Indian forces killed innocent kashmiris...how ridiculous. That is the idea of dictatorship.

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  47. @Ajaz
    I figured a while back that LiberalM is not really a liberal. He is justifying Indian terror against innocent Kashmiris just because we morally supported our brothers who decided to pick up arms against Indian oppression.

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  48. @Ajaz,

    Whatever dissatisfaction one has, one has to take it up peacefully. You cannot morally, and physically support armed militancy while carrying a flag of truce in your hand. It is called having your cake and eating it too or running with the hares and hunting with the hounds. It is not possible to do that. Sooner or later you pay the price.

    I am sorry that innocent Kashmiris got killed, maimed, and raped in the last 20 years. It was a war zone and such tragic things happen in war zones. But you also have to introspect and ask who created the warzone, who supported it, who fed the fuel to it, and not just blame the party which was trying to douse the fires.

    For the first time, in 20 years, there is a chance for real peace in Kashmir. Civilian deaths are still occuring but at a far smaller rate than before.

    I have condemned in the past, and I will condemn again the demolition of Babri Masjid, I condemn in the strongest possible way, the post-godhra Gujarat massacre. Narendra Modi is a villain in my eyes, and so is Varun Gandhi. I condemn the oppressive ways of the CRPF in Kashmir Valley. I did send them an e-mail strongly expressing my condemnation of their action. Nothing happened but I tried, didn't I ?

    I behave in as conscientious a manner that I can possible think of. Whether you see it liberal enough or not is not a deciding factor. How many liberal Kashmiris are out there who will condemn the actions of the militants ? There is only stream of thoughts I see coming through - monster India, drunken India, brutal India .. what about the other parties (Pakistan, Kashmiris themselves) who are equally to blame for the tragedy in Kashmir ? Think about it.

    - LiberalM

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  49. @LiberalM
    Your arguments are no different to those used by terrorists and psychopaths. To collectively punish an entire people for their beliefs. You sir need to visit a psychiatrist.

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  50. Anonymous
    Here we Go! Now you are no longer any Anonymous. You are the same old zealot from Panun Kashmir type of mis- Organisation. Same old rant, you Kashmiri Muslims have forced Kashmiri Pandits to migrate and all those subsequent myths which usually we are sick of hearing again and again. And by the way, I never advocated the Sharia in Kashmir although I would love to live under a Shariat system but for that we need to be real Muslims first. Anyways, its a different topic, not of your interest.
    I only tried to prove that by posting links from the stuff of your liking is not the end of it. There is always another side of the story also. As I wrote you are behavig like a fog machine, you have now actually become a fog machine. You cannot convince anyone with your hypothetical presumptions. We never supported any fanatic ideology. We tried to be as brotherly with our Pandit brothren as one can possibly be. But unfortunately the fog machines within the KP community and state administration decieved most of them, and rest is history. Besides, this the probability of Kashmir getting Freedom creeped into the minds of Pandits and they migrated rather integrated themselves with Hindu majority India once for all. Thus, religious bias, religious fanaticism, religious patriotism is not our cup of tea but a school of thought, a way of thinking of our Pandit baradiri. We are secular, we were secular and shall remain secular in futre too. So please see things without hate and prejudice. You will benefit out of it.

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  51. @koshur,

    Beliefs are one thing. Trying to enforce those beliefs by using guns is quite another. You can't hold a flag of truce in one hand and proclaim your good intentions and hold a live grenade in the other hand. It destroys the sanctity of the flag of truce and no one believes a genuine flag of truce from that point on.

    To collectively punish an entire people for their beliefs ? I condemned it already. See if you can read it in just the post above.

    You want everyone else to be super-liberal while ceding no ground on your end. You want it to be a one-way street all to your liking. Nothing wrong with wanting it, except there are other people who also want to have it the other way too. See the point of view from their side too from time to time.

    If you are not ready to condemn the violence of the militants then in my opinion, you have no right to condemn the violence of the armed forces. Period. I condemn them both and that is where I stand. Period.

    - LiberalM

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  52. @LiberalM

    You need to clear up your thoughts.
    No one called for a truce, and no one is waving a white flag.
    Read your prior comments on how you justified Indian terror against innocent Kashmiris, and make up your mind what you really believe.

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  53. @Koshur,@kashmir center,@Ajaz and likes of you,

    You really deserve what you are getting.

    please continue with your struggles against "indian oppression"

    Even though I had reached this conclusion a long time back, but I still clinged to some divine hope that may be i am wrong.

    I really can't argue further.
    Once again you guys deserve what you are going through. And In the meantime, you have made a Hell of a beautiful place.

    -corekashmiri

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  54. @koshur,

    Clean up my thoughts ? You need to clean up your conscience, Sir.

    - until 1989, no 'oppression'
    - 1989: militancy starts
    - kashmiris lend their support to militancy thinking they would get their 'freedom' THAT way
    - 'oppression' begins
    - sept 11, 2001: terrorism gets seriously noticed and acted upon worldwide
    - 2009: militancy fails
    - kashmiris have lost interest in supporting a failed militancy
    - 'oppression' starts to wind down
    - from 2009 onwards .. no 'oppresion'

    Anyone versed in the basic theory of causality can see the cause and effect above. Just to be clear: Militancy leads to 'Oppression'.

    There can be no peace in Kashmir valley without reconciliation. There can be no reconciliation without truth. On behalf of civil society of India I accept the fact that forces representing my people have committed atrocities in the Valley. Do you, as member/s of the Kashmiri civil society, accept your share of the moral responsibility for the tragedy of the past 20 years when you supported the violence of the militants ?

    Simple question. I wait for your answer. And please keep in mind the name of your blog "Kashmir: TRUTH Be Told". There is no alternative but to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

    - LiberalM

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  55. @liberalM

    You not only need to clear up your thoughts you also need to brush up on your puny knowledge of Kashmir's freedom struggle. Indian oppression started right from the arrest and detention of Sheikh Abdullah for 11 years. And no Indian oppression has not started to wind down. Yet more figments of your imagination.

    I and every other Kashmiri, who chose not to take up arms against Indian oppression, never supported violence by militants. Overwhelming majority of Kashmiris never supported the militant route to gain our freedom from barbaric Indians. They remain my brothers and sisters though and it is totally understandable how unbearable atrocities by the Indians can lead even promising young Kashmiris down the abyss of militancy. Some of these young men had their homes destroyed by your barbaric army, their sisters, mothers violated and fathers shot dead in cold blood. I am no person to judge why they chose the path they did and am not even half the man they are, for fighting for their rights and for their motherland of Kashmir. I never support violence and never will. Most Kashmiris fall into this category. We do not support violence but will NEVER speak against militants. The tragedies committed by black sheep among the militants are condemnable to say the least and this includes those who murdered 250 pandits and thousands of pro-India politicians. Those were criminal elements who had sneaked into the ranks of the militants and they deserve to rot in hell along with all the Indian criminal soldiers.

    As for your argument that I should accept the moral responsibilty for the tragedy.... when we supported militants. Read above..

    LiberalM people like you are the most dangerous of all Indians. You call yourself liberal however deep inside you showed your true hindutva self by justifying criminal actions of your soldiers agaisnt unarmed innocent Kashmiris just for our moral support of the militants. There is a word for thinking such as this..

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  56. @hindutva agent pretending to be Kashmiri muslim female

    You are not fooling anyone.
    Go away you are not welcome here. You have your own sites such as Panun Kashmir, and other hindutva sites to post your anti-Islam propaganda. Spew your venom there.

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  57. @koshur,

    Calling me a Hindutva agent doesn't make me so. Calling me illiberal doesn't make me so. Calling me 'dangerous' doesn't make me so.

    Essentially what you are saying is this: "we don't support violence [we are peaceful] but we morally and physically support the militants [who do all the violence]". What sort of a twisted logic is that ?

    If you do not support violence, how can you support people who commit violence, particularly people who commit violence in your name ? Doesn't make sense, does it ?

    Every one of us in India could make the exact same argument and say we do not commit any atrocities ourselves but but we do morally support our troops [who commit atrocities].

    No sir, no, turning the other cheek doesn't cut it. If you support the people who commit the violence, then you are an accomplice to the tragedy that ensues. If the Indian civil society does not condemn the atrocities committed by the Indian troops then the Indian civil society is accomplice to those atrocities, just as German civil society is still paying the moral price of the atrocities committed by the German troops in world war II. If you support the violence of your militants and not condemn it or oppose it, then you are an acomplice to the tragedy.

    Criminal elements sneaking into the ranks of the militants ? Why won't that same logic apply to 'bad apples' amongst the security forces ?

    - LiberalM

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  58. @Ray

    What you wrote is very accurate about a few enjoying the most power in today's world; and therefore, strength in numbers argument - we'd be better off banding with India.

    The argument seems very logical on the surface, but at what price in Kashmiri lives will any deal seem sour? 100,000 Kashmiri deaths by official figures and 250,000 deaths by the word on the street. No matter what India says or does, it's futile now.

    I am writing a blog titled "Kashmir 2029" to raise a hypothetical scenario that touches on a similar situation. Will be up in a few days.

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  59. @ koshur
    you are blind since you can see only one side and you simply refuse to widen your knowledge
    if someone speaks truth you shut them by saying hinduvta agent as if being hindu is crime (although as per islam they are kafirs).
    Every human being thinks of himself Superior nothing wrong in that but thinking of others inferior that is what is root cause - all kashmiri's irrespective of their religion are highly self centered and do not even understand what words like freedom democracy mean .
    with lone into elections - it proves what every leader in kashmir wants and what they are

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