Kashmir Truth Be Told Blog
Yus neereth gassan, pheereth cha yevaano: morda che gassan zinde (Kashmiri saying)

9/2/08

400 Year Old Freedom Struggle

It is said that Habba Khatoon, the peasant-Queen and the beloved of the last Kashmiri king, Yousuf Shah Chak, used to wander around Kashmir in memory of her captured husband. Her poetry mourns the loss of her beloved king, and of Kashmir to foreigners and has always sowed the seeds of revolt here.

It took the mighty Mughal army four attempts and thirty years before they could conquer us; and even then they only succeeded because of deceit, lies and trickery. Ever since that fate-ful day in 1587, when the Mughlas finally defeated our army, and entered Kashmir, we have never smelled the fresh air of freedom again. Our nation has been plundered by foreign rulers ever since.

After the Mughals were weakened, we bore the brunt of the Afghan Durani rule, whose governers subjected us to unmentionable cruelties. We suffered under them for 67 long years.

The Sikh rule that followed only made things worse as they treated us more like cattle. Forced labour and unreasonable taxes were the norm. Two European travellers, Moorcroft and Hugel, who visited Kashmir at different times during this period, corroborate our claim, and vividly describe the state of our miseries then. Moorcroft describes how Kashmiris were tied up like slaves and taken for forced labour. Anyone disagreeing would have their throats slit and left on the side of the road. Their rule resulted in Kashmiri muslims deserting their homes and moving to other countries. Moorcroft estimated in his account that in some villages, more than two thirds of the inhabitants had left Kashmir to escape the tyranny of the Sikhs.

The Dogra rule that immediately followed only made things worse as it was the same tyranny perpetrated by different rulers. Kashmiri muslims, who ruled this nation, and were proud owners of lands, who worked side by side with their brothers and sisters of other religions, were reduced to a pitiful state of misery. We were forced to become labourers of our own lands that we once ruled, slaves of our foreign rulers, and beggars once everything we owned was taken by the Dogra rulers as taxes.

If the Dogra rule was not brutal enough, we were made to witness a cruel irony of fate. When we were about to taste the sweetness of freedom after three centuries of seeing our nation being plundered again and again, the Indians had to take it away from us. The Indians, claiming to profess to democracy, arrested our newly elected Prime Minister and so began their oppressive rule in which they have killed 200,000 Kashmiris and tortured tens of thousands more. They have been responsible for killing thousands of Kashmiris whose bodies were recovered from mass graves; and still thousands more remain missing. They continue to subject us to the most unspeakable attrocities everyday. Some claim that the Afghan rule in Kashmir was the darkest in our history, I contend it has to be the Indian rule. Nothing even compares to these cruelties that they perpetrated on us.

This saga of foreign rule continues to this day, and after 400 years of subjugation, we are at a point in history where our united voices may end this spell; we can stand united and say no to foreign rule. We cannot go back in history and repel the invasion of the Mughal, the Afghan, the Sikh, the Dogra or the Indian & Pakistani armies; however we can in our hearts keep the flame of freedom burning. It is the legacy of our brave Kashmiri soldiers who fought the mighty Mughal armies and defeated them three times. It is a testament to the hundreds of thousands of Kashmiris who bore the tyrannies inflicted upon them by foreign rulers, and yet passed on the tales of the grandeur of a free Kashmir to the next generation.

They may think they rule us, but they do not rule Kashmir.

52 comments:

  1. This is how Moorcroft has described Kashmiri's in his travelouges -
    “in character the Kashmiri is selfish, superstitious, ignorant, supple, intriguing, dishonest and false: he has great ingenuity as a mechanic, and a decided genius for manufactures and commerce, but his transactions are always conducted in a fraudulent spirit, equaled only by the effrontery with which he faces detection. The vices of the Kashmirian I cannot help considering, however, as the effects of his political condition, rather than his nature, and conceive that it would not be difficult to transform him into a very different being.”

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  2. You live on indian tax payers money and give us nothig but bombs and more mutilaton ,yet you have the funny bone to call india the oppresser Your attitute is disgusting I see no end to violence perpetrated by U and pak on innocent people

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  3. even though I am familiar with the ruthlessness of Indians towards Kashmir, I am shocked by the hateful comments posted here - luckily the world media are waking up to the reality, two stories in the Washington Post


    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/02/AR2008090200130.html
    By Alistair Scrutton
    Reuters
    Tuesday, September 2, 2008; 2:27 AM

    SRINAGAR, India (Reuters) - The world's largest democracy locks up protest leaders without charge, shoots dozens of demonstrators dead, beats and intimidates ordinary citizens and raids homes without warrants.

    Welcome to Indian Kashmir, where the biggest separatist protests in two decades have clashed with the might of the state.

    "They are ruthless, trigger happy," said Ghulam Rasool Bhat, a laborer who says he was beaten by federal police after he tried to buy milk for his two nephews under a curfew in Srinagar, the summer capital of Indian Kashmir.

    He lay in a bed, both legs bandaged where a soldier, shouting "Get your milk from Pakistan" had smashed a rifle into his shins.

    and
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/31/AR2008083102088.html?sub=AR

    In Kashmir, Conflict's Psychological Legacy
    Mental Health Cases Swell in Two Decades

    Muslim protesters shout pro-freedom slogans during a curfew relaxation in Srinagar. Tensions had eased in recent years, but a land-transfer plan stirred anger among Muslims.
    By Emily Wax
    Washington Post Foreign Service
    Monday, September 1, 2008; Page A09

    SRINAGAR, India


    Suraya Qadeem's brother was one of the Kashmir Valley's brightest students. Handsome and disciplined, he had been accepted into a prestigious medical school in Mumbai. But just weeks before Tahir Hussain was to pack his bags, the 20-year-old was shot dead by Indian forces as he participated in a peaceful demonstration calling for Kashmir's independence.

    At his funeral, Suraya Qadeem, also a medical student, wept so hard she thought she might stop breathing. Seventeen years later, she spends her days counseling patients in Indian-controlled Kashmir who have painfully similar stories.

    the truth will out, thank you for your blog and all the best

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  4. To the comments above and on article----------Kashmir the land of meadows, mountains and lakes has been transformed into valley of death and destruction. It is appalling to see a security man of distant naga land asking a native kashmiri to prove his identity. What a tragedy has befallen on our land, its pristine water has been mixed with the blood of innocents, its glaring snowy peaks have been raped by millions of shells of gunfire, its flowery meadows have been trampled by military boots and vehicles. The propagators of democracy and secularism has destroyed its ethos of brotherhood and harmony. Some Indian people think we are crazy, narrow-minded and fundamentalists they tell us we are ungrateful because we survive on their tax money, we want tell them this land is not barren-we are from land of agriculture and water—we can feed you-You know Mughals, afghans, Sikhs and Dogras had been running their govts and military on our money. Read historical facts. Our forests were cleansed worth billions rupees logs for railway tracts, all electricity produced here is stolen and we get nothing. It is worth billions. Under a preplan strategy we were deliberately turned into dependent and helpless people. They try to turn us into ashes but a spark from it in the form of 21st young generation will enlighten us with the flame of freedom. This is our motto.

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  5. Dear script ,
    I suggest that you go to the blog titled "brainwaves kashmir" and read the piece written by Rashmi Sehegal. She is an Indian.

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  6. Koshur,

    This is your blog and these are your views and opinions. I thank you for letting us join in the discussion.

    As a moderate, liberal Indian, I hate to see violence anywhere in India or in territories currently controlled by India (such as Kashmir). A lot of us at this point are truly wondering if it is worth keeping Kashmir. If the Kashmiris don't want to live peacefully in a unique, special state (Art 370 guarantees that) then let it go. Currently Kashmir has all the advantages of being in India (security from China and Pakistan, a billion+ dollar annual support) without any of the disadvantages of being run over by us 'Indians'. Wish all states were like that.

    A huge proportion of the Kashmiri violence is perpetrated by Kashmiris themselves. Minimal investment from private companies in India (there is Art 370 again) means Kashmir remains an economic blackhole while being next door to an emerging economic giant. This leaves local Kashmirs with little employment potential, which is the real cause of all the violence. Political/Terrorist outfits take advantage of this underlying reality to feed impractical and unrealistic dreams to Kashmiris.

    Learn to disambiguate these issues, think with a clear head and you'll realize that economic hardship is the basis of most of this violence. Art 370 needs to be modified (I am not advocating scrapping it altogether) to allow for investments from the rest of India to spur economic activity in Kashmir. Only then the violence will come down and Indian army can go back to the borders.

    Thanks for your blog again.

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  7. IF WE REALLY DO LIVE ON INDIAN TAX PAYERS MONEY, WE BEG YOU TO STOP PAYING FOR OUR UPKEEP AND LET US GO...IN KASHMIR WHAT INDIA IS DOING IS CALLED "BATTA Policy".You guys will not even pay for the upkeep of your own mothers, how do you expect us to believe that you get nothing in return from Kashmir and pay for all our living expenses. The Cow (GAI MAATA) are the best example...you guys milk her till she stays fertile and then turn her out once she stops making milk. I often see your many gai maatas on the streets of Delhi and other cities foraging for food in the filthy garbage dumps.

    Yes we are a crazy demented people who don't know what an oppressor means and therefore accuse India on false grounds. The angelic Bharat Maata is the best country in the world as it pays for our upkeep etc etc etc (Rhetoric rhetoric and rhetoric).BULLSHIT!!!! rather than talking justice and making sense u Indians keep on parroting the same old subsidy/tax payer/Terrorists etc etc speeches.

    Have you ever wondered whoose people have been mutilated the most....have you ever given a thought to whoose women have been raped. Do you know what it is to live in a prison called Kashmir with your angelic Indian army acting as the witness, killer and judge.

    We Kashmiris have never been, are not and will never be a part of India and will continue fighting the opressor i.e. The occupying forces of INDIA.

    "HUM KYA CHAHETE AZAADI"

    "INDIAN DOGS GO BACK"

    Indian DEMOCRACY is in truth DEMONCRAZY

    ALLAHBAKSH

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  8. You have given a good concise picture of history but failed to mention the brutalities perpetrated on us Kashmiris by our own Kashmiri brothers namely THE KASHMIRI PANDITS who always took sides with the ruling class and helped them subjugate us further. The sikhs/ The mughals/ The dogras or the Afghans never spoke our language and these cunning Battas (Kashmiri Pandits) who were just like jews spewed venom and helped them understand our resistance movements.Over the centuries they have always trampled upon us in order to stay in the good books of the occupiers and continue living their priviledged lives. The occupiers rewarded them by giving huge land grants and estates plus positions of power in the government. These ungrateful people inspite of what they did to us were saved from the Kabailees by their muslim brothers and see how they are repaying us today.We should have pointed out their homes to the Kabailees and not suffer the consequences of saving these venomous snakes. Today these Battas participate in killing and maiming us ever single day...they are working in organisations like RAW, Indian Military, BSF and other intelligence agencies. They are the pivotal group in influencing Indias policy on Kashmir and even the CBM groups are headed by Kashmiri Battas. Its time we Kashmiris stood up and faced these vily imposters once for all.

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  9. Kashmir has been turned into a graveyard, a hounding ground for marauding canines. There is saying in kashmiri DRAAG TSHALIH PAR DAAG TSHALINA.The famine will go but stains will remain. If people think by coercion, bribes, false promises and division, they will make us to forget the 40 martyrs of just in last month, they are misled-For centuries this flame of freedom could not be extinguished –We were and we are a free nation no body can rule our hearts. See any map of world made in other than of pak and India. We are shown as disputed.

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  10. To the comments above and on article----------Kashmir the land of meadows, mountains and lakes has been transformed into valley of death and destruction. It is appalling to see a security man of distant naga land asking a native kashmiri to prove his identity. What a tragedy has befallen on our land, its pristine water has been mixed with the blood of innocents, its glaring snowy peaks have been wounded by millions of shells of gunfire, its flowery meadows have been trampled by military boots and vehicles. The propagators of democracy and secularism has destroyed its ethos of brotherhood and harmony. Some Indian people think we are crazy, narrow-minded and fundamentalists they tell us we are ungrateful because we survive on their tax money, we want tell them this land is not barren-we are from land of agriculture and water—we can feed you-You know Mughals, afghans, Sikhs and Dogras had been running their govts and military on our money. Read historical facts. Our forests were cleansed worth billions rupees logs for railway tracts, all electricity produced here is stolen and we get nothing. It is worth billions. Under a preplan strategy we were deliberately turned into dependent and helpless people. They try to turn us into ashes but a spark from it in the form of 21st young generation will enlighten us with the flame of freedom. This is our motto.

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  11. I have to agree that Article 370 does hinder economical growth in Kashmir.
    We have a lot of mistrust towards India that maybe because so many broken promises
    India has to come clean and change that

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  12. The problem started when Islam and its violent ways came to South Asia. Before that there was no religious animosity in South Asia.

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  13. Every generation passes on their rich legacy to their progeny. Similarly any generation would expect their off springs to be in peace, harmony, developing, "educated", here we have a strange case of Kashmiris (who vehemently propagate such biased and prejudiced senses) where generations pass on misery, hatred, compulsions, poverty, vanity, and all such abstracts found frequently in their vocabulary.

    No wonder we find Kashmir's present generation (beware progenies) amidst piles of above mentioned words.

    They take pride in calling themselves Kashmiri but won't flinch a thought before taking admission in a Bombay Medical College and simultaneously hurl abuses on the Indian masses.

    Ya know its all development propaganda and selfish motives.

    When they think individual empowerment they come to mainland India for better education and facilities and of course won't go back where guns are moved in their asses.

    If Central Govt. had wanted you to be massacred, they would not have waited so long.

    You are alive and kicking ur asses proves that Indian Govt. is not building concentration and camps. You are free to raise your voice again proves the might of democracy that this country empower one and all.

    But again the habit of passing vanity to progeny won't help. This is evolution and No One gonna stay forever.

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  14. Most of the people on this blog prefer to post their comments as annonymous. It would be much better if they adopt some name/title for themselves and post their blogs while their identity continues to remain obscure (if they wish to keep it like that). That will help us address them when we reply their comments. Anonymous has picked up economic backwardness of Kashmir and held Article 370 responsible for the same. Fact of the matter is that Kashmir is economically lagging behind because of what the experts call as India's "Dependency Syndrome". A lot of research has been done on this and a lot many theses have been written as to how India trumpets billions of rupees being showered over Kashmir and still continues to make Kashmiris remain always dependent on them without any opportunity to get up on their own feet. To cite an example, last time when Manmohan Singh visited Kashmir, he announced an economic package of 26000 crores. Many Indian created hulla bulla on this and criticized him for attempting to pamper Kashmiris every now and them at the cost of Indian exchequer. But the reality is that 14000 crores out of this money was going to be spent on Aganwadi centres and the wages for their workers, whereas the remaining amount was to be spent on mini hydro-electricity projects, that ultimately was to benefit none else than India itself. Had these 14000 crores been spent on Industrialization, our unemployed youth would have become eligible to generate their own income and income for others too. India invests in Kashmir in a very tactful manner so that whatever investment pour in, that is going to benefit India only and the remaining amount is spent in such a manner so that the locals always remain dependent on the central funds and are never able to generate their own income. Whatever us use and consume in Kashmir comes from India, from a sewing pin to a computer, everything is procured from INdian markets. Thus whatever money we earn goes back to Indian businessmen again and this vicious circle continues since decades.

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  15. It is not a Kashmir Vs India story. Infact, the autonomy with security would not be given by any other nation. Off course! not our neighbour

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  16. It is a great tragedy for the people of Kashmir that we are suffering under slavery for last 400 yrs ,when all nations of the world including African and far off small Islands were given the Right of Independence .We are being denied this birth Right. The difference between past and present is- in past- we were under the slavery of kings and their families but now we are under the garb of pseudo democracy and pseudo secularism. Some Indians claim that we have same rights as they have and our demand for Independence is just craziness .Well we are asking to the saner elements and not the prejudiced ones.
    1. The promise made to us of self determination isn’t it a fact?
    2. Was there ever Democracy here?, weren’t all elections held farce?
    3. Weren’t all leaders forced on us at the whims of Delhi power brokers?
    4. Have we same human rights as you have ,here any security personnel can kill any body with full impunity, isn’t it a fact?
    5. Just in recent agitation, there was more violence, destruction of property and road blockade in Jammu and three deaths only and here in Kashmir every thing was non violent and 40 deaths by police firing Isn’t it discrimination?
    THE TRUTH IS WE BELONG TO A DIFFERENT RELIGION AND THAT IS REASON WE ARE CONSIDERED PEOPLE WITHOUT RIGHTS

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  17. Mr Bhanu Pratap----You seem to be prejediced punk -your language speaks it-This has happened in kashmir people like you are responsible for mess-- with the ideology-- Might is Right.Dont give lectures about sanity. Just tell those brutes who destroyed everything here,and dont generalize we have nothing against common masses of india.

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  18. To Mr bhanu pratap-------Who is trying to give us a lecture of sanity as if we are people with low IQ, whom you are making fool? We are you? Mr. democrat and Mr. Secular- it is 21st century not 60yrs ago- when ignorant people will be shown green pastures of secularism .OK for the sake of argument we are every thing bad. What about Gujarati Muslims they did not raise anti national slogans. Their massacre is still fresh. Ok leave Muslims aside. What about Christians of orrisa they are not Pakistanis –It is recent see what Italian govt and holy pope said or are you listening only news of hinduvta .There is so much to say Mr. perfect whole books can be filled. Keep your economy with you- just stop farmers from committing suicides.

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  19. To one BP -----Please don’t generalize; we are not against Hindus of India. One should be honest to say general population is good; they are being misled by false propaganda by biased media and power hungry politicians. We are living in that part of world where people are obsessed with religious, caste and regional biases. It is the material for politics and when masses are illiterate it becomes the gunpowder just to catch an ignition. Whenever there are elections these are the issues to be brought in .The progress issues doesn’t matter-- every thing has genesis behind it- so is here--, before you draw conclusions about a people and if you are unbiased --.Read and look for the truth-- the majority of kashmiris are not crazy and bigoted –we are an intelligent race- scores of world famous intellectuals arose from this land—I am telling you the truth the ultimate truth---- that Indian political system failed here .You look for the reasons-Don’t keep hatred in you --,it is symptom of severe mental disorder. It is not at all personal

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  20. What will Bhanu Pratab answer when we will ask him that while Indians were slaves of British why did his leaders graduated from universities of London. I know He will not answer. Whenever there are a freedom struggle people of all walks of life join it and everybody contributes to it. It doesn't mean that our children have to leave their studies.Life and political struggle can go side by side. At least we will not give India the same chance which it gave to the British. When Winston Churchill was asked to comment upon giving Independence to Indians he replied "We cannot give independence to BEGGARS and SNAKE CHARMERS" Of course it was his heartedness towards Indians whom he could not see Independent. Today some people in India have live in obsession that Kashmir lives on their money. Unfortunately this is not 100% true. Indeed there is transfer of money from India but that is for the Govt employees especially Police. India has to keep its police and army happy so that it can go to any action to suppress subjugate peaceful demonstrations and will of people by any means. Some one above has mentioned rightly. We have no human rights as we are Muslims of Kashmir, Which means we are slaves as this part could have never been with India. The secular army of India after Killing 40 unarmed peaceful demonstrators in Kashmir is now trying another weapon, entering into houses of Kashmiris during the curfew and breaking windows, refrigerators, TVs, satellite receivers, land line telephones, worst to it beat old men and women, children not to talk about the young who are beaten to pulp only because they ask for freedom. No one can dare oppose them. They shoot him dead on the spot. http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=4_9_2008&ItemID=35&cat=1

    Why don’t Pratab propagates the lesion of sanity to these Dakus (dacots) in uniform.Where is democracy and secularism of India.

    http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=4_9_2008&ItemID=39&cat=1

    If govt of India thinks it can suppress our voice by its military might then it is living in a fools paradise. We will fight for our independence with tooth and nail and will get Indian army out of our pious land which has been occupied by it .Log live revolution.

    Waleed

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  21. Well my prediction came so correct! Boy the comment was right wasn't it..

    With prejudice and vanity in their eyes and head they could not fathom my comment was nowhere close to religion or secularism...

    No wonder follow-up comment were full of scrapes

    Kashmir or any backward region will be heaven if peace is there, peace will be possible if people are content, people will be contented when they have money, money will be there when industrialization happens, industrialization will happen when infrastructure will be developed and infrastructure will fall in when PEACE is there so better choose with BRAIN if there are any.....

    Shabba Kher

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  22. hi my dear kasmiri friends

    when the whole world is looking to india, my dear brothers u are looking backward to ur eternal brothers pakis, which the world knows is a failed state,which cant rule its own country properly but want kashmir for them.i dont care wht is right and what is wrong,things are much bigger than these rights/wrongs.
    let me tell what it is

    KASHMIR is INDIA's KEEP(setup)
    a rich powerful country acn afford to keep like chinA(tibet),USA,russia etc
    u have to understand a rich poerful man will never lose possession of its most beautiful keep.so u sons of keep just enjoy the facilities provided and keep ur mouth shut,u cab shout scream cry fight but u wont get what u want ( freedom)

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  23. Kashmiri Hindus Hatredness exposed in Mumbai
    http://www.kashmirobserver.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1009&Itemid=30&joscclean=1&comment_id=605

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  24. I wonder whether the the history of kashmir starts from the period that has been mentioned here,there's more to it.Lets try and recollect history;First of all get in to the etymology of the word kashmir and u will understand what i m trying to say. The history of kashmir is much much beyond the period that has been discussed.If you have any questions about it please refer history of kashmir or perhaps an easier source will be wikipedia.If any one says that forced conversions were not made plz refer to wikipedia again on the atrocities that were meted out to the non muslims by the muslim rulers.Moreover is religion the only premise on which the whole idea of secession being discussed? If thats not the case on what grounds is the proposition of joining pakistan is based on? Why not join China ?
    People often talk about New Delhi letting down kashmiris.I have one question was India not there for it in its greatest hour of crisis.India willingly or unwillingly accepted the request and accepted kashmir into its territories officially and fought a battle on its behalf.Now after 60 years and also along due course there have been demands of independence from certain sections,that too only on the premise of religion.For 60 years New Delhi has borne the responsibility in all aspects and tried to bring it in mainstream,but what really matters to those separatists is religion it seems to be the be all and end all.Then what about all economic,social,political and military costs borne till date.If the argument of separation is based on human rights violation the we should also understand that the whole crisis started since terrorism started evolving in the valley.If you compare the magnitude of violations with that of Iraq,Afghansistan,GBay,NWFP in Pak,Africa,Kososvo,Chechnya,Tibet and of course aginst the kashmiri pandits what is it that one can conclude.The conclusion will also be that India is a soft state and that it doesnt come down hard on its irritants. If you say that India is not a safe place for muslims because of Gujarat,then u should understand that the riots were a retaliation to the Godhra train burning incident in which the piligrims were burnt alive by the muslim mob.I should also say that because of islamic terrorism nobody feels safe in India.
    If you say that India has reneged from its promise from holding plebiscite then you should also know that your leader Sheikh Abdullah was not in favour of it.It was only the emotional Nehru who got it as an additioanl clause in the aggrement as he did not want the people of kashmir to be embarrassed in the UN(plz refer to history again).It should also be understood that that Sheikh Abdullah was for remaining with India and he had won the election on this plank,this you cannot discount as not being a refferendum from the people at that point of time.
    After all this if you say that kashmir belongs to u and u want freedom because of ur religion and history then going by the same parameters the valley should go to the hindus and buddists and the muslims in the valley should leave it and go to Pak and other islamic countries.After all someone needs to answer for the historical attrocities and injustices that have been committed against the other sections as well who will be held responsible for all that?

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  25. The last anonymous poster makes me want to shake my head and wonder how people can re-invent the truth to suit their arguments. You say Sheikh Abdullah did not want to have a plebiscite? and for whatt reason was he jailed for eleven years then?

    You sir are a real dangerous person for making false claims. A mojority of the people of Kashmir are seeking independence NOT Pakistan.

    The attrocities being committed by Inida in Kashmir are in no way lesser to those being committed elsewhere. in fact India is guilty of committing even more heinous crimes.

    The freedom struggle of Kashmir is not based on religion; it is based on ridding our nation of foreign occupation.

    You in fact are communally minded for bringing up religion into the picture. If religion were the basis, then we would not look upon the Mughal, or Afghan periods as occupations as well.

    You sir are a dangerous perrson.

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  26. To Mr. anonymous – Don’t say Sheikh Abdullah was our leader –during that period of ignorance, when illiterates and goons without any political thinking were let loose on sane people of Kashmir. These goons muzzled the voice of literates and visionary .You know the elections you are talking about--out of 75 seats 73 were declared unopposed and this assembly had endorsed the ascension on certain conditions .A leader means a democrat, selfless, and visionary, If by your logic Kashmiris had elections so game has ended-Then Indians also fought elections under British- that didn’t mean they supported then British Empire. Sheikh Abdullah had a false ego, he never tolerated anybody opposing him because he thought he is correct and rest are foolish. It is for same folly he was removed in 1953,77.Ok if he was leader of Kashmir and you respect him, where it had gone in 1953 &1977 .He was also in jail for 11years.Now you had answered your own argument –when he was not trusted and tolerated- so what about we rest?
    The truth is because we belong to a different religion so whosoever he is. They are others

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  27. To Mr. BP----If money would had been the source of contentment, then people of rich nations would had been most peaceful, Go and check where is highest number of suicides, gunshot murders, rapes, alcoholic and drug addictions, divorces and split families .you will see richest nations leading in all. Peace with in and with out depend upon beliefs , ethos and respecting each others rights

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  28. To MR.BP and other staunch Hindutva/Indian agents..

    India just like Israel has been parroting slogans of economic and military benefits to its respective occupied territory.

    Per capita income of
    Israel: USD 25,800.
    India: USD 2700.

    People Below poverty line in India: 25% of the 1.3 billion strong nation.

    UN resolutions on Kashmir and Palestine: Numerous (18 at last count)

    Status of J&K internationally: NOT EVEN A SINGLE COUNTRY IN THE WORLD RECOGNISES J&K AS AN INTEGRAL PART OF INDIA...I REPEAT NOT EVEN A SINGLE COUNTRY IN THE WORLD RECOGNISES J&K AS AN INTEGRAL PART OF INDIA.(source: CIA WORLD FACT book/BBC Country Profiles)

    Even US which is a staunch ally of Israel wants a free Palestinian state.

    Palestinians over the years were successful in making the Israelis pull out of West bank and Gaza even after decades of Israeli propaganda stating the beautiful life Palestinians would have under Israeli sovereignity much like what the Indians tell us.

    UN has a mandate to follow in Jammu & Kashmir and till that mandate is not held, UN cannot pull out of J&K.

    OHCHR, HRW, Amnesty International and the world media as a whole have time and again recognised the brutality of Indians in J&K and yet India fails to see the truth in Kashmir.

    C'mon guys try digesting the fact that Kashmir is a disputed territory and solve it as soon as is possible. That is the only way you will be able to provide for 25% of your population which lives below poverty line (source:CIA World fact book)and stop spending 30% of your GDP on the military(1.1 million in number) 75% of which is stationed in Kashmir....imagine how much money you are spending on your army in Kashmir and by withdrawing how much you will be able to save for a rainy day.

    Yes by leaving Kashmir, India will do a world of economic good to itself and considerably improve its economic standing. Its farmers will stop committing suicides and people in states like Orissa and bihar will stop selling their daughters and sons for money.

    C'mon India for once be JUST to us. LEAVE US and live in relative prosperity after that.

    We may suffer after you leave us but for a bird in an iron cage, its better to roam the free skies and forge its destiny rather than be in a gilded cage following the whims and fancies of the master.

    Of course please do stop stealing our Power/timber/willow/Land etc. Ah! Yes... your army is occupying laks of canals in J&K by annexing orchards, AGRICULTURAL LAND, hotels, houses and don't even spare roads........whats more they don't pay us a single dime for taking away our sources of livelihood in the form of arable land etc. I reckon that one day you will have to settle that in an International court of Law....The arrears amount to Trillions of US dollars.

    so while you start parroting your next burst of how good it is to be with India....stop hijacking the authors original post of 400 years of slavery in Kashmir...the worst of which is the Indian Occupation of kashmir.

    ReplyDelete
  29. Koshur,

    While it is true that there are human rights violations being committed within Kashmir as of now, one also has to remember that before 1989 there were no human rights violations being committed in Kashmir. There was no army in Srinagar or in any populated places in Kashmir in 1989.

    I am sure you'd agree with me that after violent militancy started in the valley in 1989, it is only after that the human rights violations started taking place.

    We can certainly discuss why the violent militancy started in the valley. But that could be topic for another discussion.

    I am sure you'd also agree with me that the first duty of government (any government) is to maintain Law and Order. Even if Kashmir were to be independent, it would have been the responsibility of the Kashmiri government to maintain Law and Order. Governments go to any extent to maintain law and order. As a matter of fact they HAVE to. Without law and order the whole justification for having a government would cease to exist. Numerous examples exist in Indian states where local police have resorted to firing to control mobs and unruly crowds and people have died. The gowari massacre in Nagpur where a huge unruly crowd tried to march to the Assembly is just one example. Hundred+ (yes, hundred+) people died in that single incident. One can say it was just a peaceful march. But peaceful march to where - to the Assembly building and who is going to guarantee that 100,000+ charged up people would remain peaceful for too long ? Same thing with the peaceful march to the border in Kashmir .. yes it is peaceful for now but where is it going .. to a heavily militarized border ?

    Without vigorous economic activity in Kashmir, there would be no gainful employment. There would no economic activity without Peace. The political leadership in Kashmir has to realize this and stop feeding unsustainable, impractical dreams of 'freedom' into Kashmiri populace that they purport to serve. It is the Kashmiri politicians that are doing a great disservice to Kashmiri people not the government of India. It is always (ALWAYS) easy to blame something other than yourself for one's situation. It is as true for Maharashtrians as it is for Kashmiris.

    Once again, I thank you for having this discussion and inspite of our disagreements, I respect you and your inalienable right to have your own viewpoint.

    ReplyDelete
  30. @liberal marathi

    -Yes there were human rights violations before 89. For one, our first prime minister of Kashmir was arrested and jailed for eleven years for the crime of reminding nehru about the promise of plebiscite.

    -the army has always occupied areas in populated non-border areas. badami bagh, manasbal and anantnag just to name a few

    -if the slogan of freedom is impractical and we are doing a disservice to the kashmiri people, then Bhutan, Nepal, Srilanka and maldives should be your next goal to occupy forcefully using the same arguments.

    Kashmir was never an "integral" part of india. We never accepted the accession bu hari singh that was imposed upon us. Lecturing us on our economic viabilty as a free nation would get the dialog nowhere.

    ReplyDelete
  31. @chinaar

    "I reckon that one day you will have to settle that in an International court of Law....The arrears amount to Trillions of US dollars"

    Also the interest on the outstanding dues!

    If the Indians even have a faintest hope that we will somehow give up our claims on thier "free-loading" in Kashmir; then they can stop dreaming now. We will fight for our claims, no matter how long it takes.

    The Indians should use a bit of "un-common" sense and cut their losses, and withdraw from Kashmir. The amount they owe us only goes up exponentially everyday.

    ReplyDelete
  32. The biggest HUMAN RIGHT THAT WAS TAKEN FROM US IS OUR RIGHT TO SELF DETERMINATION....and that happened way way before 1989

    Shabir Shah was imprisoned for more than 16 years...Amnesty International calls him a prisoner of conscience and this was before 1989. Maqbool Bhat was framed on false charges and hung by the dastardly Indians and that was way before 1989.

    Yaseen Malik before he took up the gun in 1989 was imprisoned before 1989.

    Tattu ground in Batamaloo, Badamee Bagh cantonment right in the middle of Sonwar were Indian military installations present in the heart of srinagar before 1989.

    I repeat nothing can be more brutal than The biggest HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSE OF ALL i.e RIGHT TO SELF DETERMINATION which was taken away from us....and that happened way way before 1989.

    Educate yourself my friends and don't let friendly Indian rhetoric blind you so much that you become participants in killing another generation of Kashmiris.

    ReplyDelete
  33. @koshur

    I am just an ordinary Maharashtrian, not very knowledgeable about Kashmir, and I ask for your indulgence while I make my clumsy arguments.

    - plebiscite cannot be looked at in isolation and held in vacuum. First of all, the UN resolution that refers to the plebiscite is under chapter VI which means that it is non-enforceable by using Security Council and other mechanisms unlike resolutions under chapter VII which are enforceable (East Timor was under chapter VII, for example). Chapter VI resolutions such as the Kashmir plebiscite need the cooperation of all parties to get implemented. For that cooperation to happen, there are several conditions stated in the Plebiscite Resolution, the first of which is the requirement that all tribals and Pakistani soldiers must withdraw from the borders of the territory of J&K as they existed on 15th Aug 1947. Pakistan was simply not agreeable to this condition. Thus the cooperation requirement for a chapter VI resolution has failed right on the first condition. The plebiscite resolution is now completely un-enforceable. Later with Pakistan joining SEATO and CENTO and Shimla Agreement in 1972 and later with the Lahore Agreement there is now no chance of enforcing the plebiscite resolution.

    - secondly, your point about Nepal, Bhutan, Maldives, and Sri Lanka being independent, thereby making a case for a viable Kashmiri independence has some merit but again there are problems underneath the surface. Autonomy with Security is the key to all these states. Bhutan has a treaty with India that guarantees Bhutan's security in case of foreign aggresion (with only two neighbors it is not hard to imagine where the foreign aggression is going to come from). Nepal has a similar although somewhat weakly worded treaty with India which has been a source of irritant to Nepalese governments. Maldives has asked for and gotten help from Indian armed forces in case of coup attempts there. Sri Lanka does not have a 'protectorate' treaty with India but then with only one neighbor it doesn't need to worry about other aggressions. Nevertheless, IPKF forces were in SriLanka on the Lankan government's invitation (a big mistake, in my opinion, but that is another topic).

    The point is all these countries are small and they need security guarantees from their large neighbors in order to be independent. If they had to incur large armed forces expenditures to guard their borders then they would not be sustainable political entities. Kashmir's unique case (Art 370) bestows on Kashmir similar autonomy as Bhutan while guaranteeing Kashmir against foreign aggressions. It is up to Kashmiris to utilize this unique autonomy to their advantage. Kashmiris can go anywhere in India, buy land, set up businesses, while us 'Indians' cannot do the same in Kashmir. It is saddening then to hear a cry for 'freedom' while young officers and soldiers from Nagaland, and Chhatisgarh, and Tamil Nadu die in fighting Kashmir's wars on Kashmiri peaks.

    I respectfully maintain that Kashmir valley cannot support itself in isolation as an independent country without security guarantees from its large neighbors. Whether those guarantees will come from Pakistan or from India is what the valley people have to decide.

    - point about Kashmir not being 'integral' part of India. India itself as an 'integral' country has existed only since 1947. But that again is just scratching the surface. India as a concept and as a symbol has existed for a lot longer than that. Whether Kashmir was part of that concept of India is up for challenge. I would say based on Kashmir's early history, its early Hindu/Buddhist heritage (I am an irreligious person so please don't read religious frame of mind here), its linkages with territories now part of India, it is clear that Kashmir hasn't existed in isolation but has always been part of the idea of India. It is disingenuous for you to go back to the history of Kashmir only up to the point where you feel comfortable with it (400 years). Why stop there and not go back even further ? Can you say emphatically in that period of history that India (the concept) had no part to play in Kashmir ?

    Whatever the history, we have to live in today's world. I will say this again respectfully, (1)kashmir's heritage (including its liberal sufi traditions) joins it in a larger concept of a liberal, secular India, (2) kashmir as an independent entity without security guarantees from one of its larger neighbors cannot survive, (3) it is in Kashmiris' interest to utilize their unique autonomy for progress. Give Peace a chance.

    Thank you for the opportunity to express my views.

    ReplyDelete
  34. U can plead, argue,question,protest,
    fight,support pakis do whatever u want
    but the reality is u cant get freedom from india

    No force in the world can take kashmir away from india.

    ReplyDelete
  35. U can plead, argue,question,protest,
    fight,support pakis do whatever u want
    but the reality is u cant get freedom from india

    No force in the world can take kashmir away from india.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Don’t live in cellars of bigotry, if you say India is democratic and secular, then there is no big delusion than this. I pity you; we will not mind your thinking of being religious or nationalist Hindus- but say straight. We also know that all Indians aren’t our tormentors .It is a small group of brokers, fascists and top echelons of power, who after tragedy of 1947 are constantly eroding our identity under the garb of so called secularism, the previous governor said --- I have to change mind set of people, it didn’t mean he wanted to alleviate poverty but was to change our religion—now how we say-he recently got one dancing girls troupe from Uzbekistan and told us this is part of actual Sufi Islam, I have never read the great Sufis ever allowed this –The junoon band groups performance was labeled as musical jihad. They want us to read history -but why only pre Islamic part? —Ok every nation has its past that doesn’t mean to forget the present. I don’t want to go into what happened to other parts in India. That is not our concern. From day One they are trying to change demography of Kashmir—They are not doing it for the sake of their religion but to keep that ruling elite group alive who from the time immemorial is exploiting the illiterate and poor in the name of Religion.

    ReplyDelete
  37. @liberalmarathi

    The fact remains that no matter how much the Indians undermine the UN resolutions, the Indian presence in Kashmir is an occupation and we are NOT an integral part of India - the UN resolutions, regardless of what clause they are under, prove that. I hope that much is clear no matter which yardstick you use. It makes no sense for blaming Pakistan for all ills of the world when India itself is unwilling to even consider its occupation here in contravention of the UN resolutions.

    Your argument that Bhutan, Nepal and others having a security agreement with India again shows the illogical stance of India. All the arguments that India uses to justify its occupation here can also be used on these countries.

    Once we declare independence, we are willing to sign similar no-agression treaties with all our neighbours; I see no reason why China, and Paksitna would not be willing to assure us our Independence.

    -Yes, that is the whole context of this post that in fact no other foreign ruler has conquered Kashmir in the past. Our spate of foreign rule only commenced with the Mughal invasion of 1587. In the past, regardless of the religion, all Kings of Kashmir have been Kashmiris. It is bigots who try to give it a communal color.

    There are many who try to invent history by claiming that Kashmir was ruled by ancient Indian Kings in the ancient times. These are a figment of imagination to satisfy their own communal thinking. There is no irrefutable proof they can present that backs up their claim. The pir panjal range is rugged and harsh for any sort of invasion and that has protected Kashmiris from aggression from the south. It is a fact that we did not have much cultural exchange with Indians of the plains; our language, dress, culture, food, and physical features such as skin color, and hair prove that. Otherwise we would have looked like Punjabis or like people from Jammu or Himachal. But the fact remains that we were never intermixing with them in the past. Religion is a different matter as it was propagated thousands of years back by solitary Hindus who travleed great distances to spread their message. That explains the hindu religion that Kashmiris used to practice. Infact there is evidence that Hinduism was practiced in Afghanistan, does that imply that they should be part of India? Similarly, Budhhism also had a base in Kashmir for similar reasons before it spread from here to China. For the same reason China and Kashmiris have little in common. We have as much similarity with China as we have with India.

    There is absolutely no justification that would make us be part of the Indian dominion, that is applicable to us and not to Nepal, Bhutan, Srilanka, or Maldives. We want to have friendly relations with both India and Pakistan, and the longer it is delayed, the more damage India is doing to itself financially.

    ReplyDelete
  38. @koshur

    1. Pakistan is a party to the UN resolution on Kashmir. If Pakistan is unwilling to carry out condition #1 at the top of the resolution, how can one honestly say that it is India that is undermining the UN resolution ? I am not blaming Pakistan for all the ills but they indeed are a serious party to the resolution and their cooperation is necessary for the resolution to be implemented.

    2. I don't see how Nepal, Bhutan etc signing protection treaty with India shows India's illogical stance. These are not non-aggression pacts. These are protection pacts that 'outsource' the said country's defence to Indian Armed Forces in case of an aggression from another party. These countries made the choice to sign those pacts with India, replacing similar pacts they had with the British colonial administration. All I meant to say there was, as small countries they had to let go of some part of their sovereignty (Defence) for being independent in all other respects.

    3. As I said earlier, I am not a religious person. Solitary hindus do not go about spreading their religion anywhere. It is just not a proselytizing religion. Either you are born a hindu or you are not - it just doesn't get spread around. Nothing good or bad about it. Just the way it is. It is far closer to animism in that sense than a real religion.

    4. Kashmiri is an Indo-European language with a very close connection to Sanskrit. In spite of these connections of language, religion, Kashmiris may still think they are different and that is quite alright. But then same is the case of almost everyone in India. Keralites have nothing in common with Assamese, Gujaratis have nothing in common with Tamils and Punjabis nothing in common with Oriyas. Even their histories are different with very little by way of a past connection. Yet they all showed sensibility in understanding that their progress lay in their banding together as one large country.

    5. It is okay for Kashmir Valley to secede and form its own independent state. I personally have no objection to such an entity. It will need enormous political maturity before that happens. Such political maturity, I am afraid, does not exist either on Kashmiri side or the Indian side. Illiterate or semi-literate populace or both sides will see to it that such mature leadership will not exist for a long time. Polical maturity in Kashmir would require realpolitik analysis of the situation and choosing the option of happily staying on as a special, autonomous state within the Indian Union. Political maturity on the Indian side would require that when a free referendum is held in a truly and fully literate populace and the referendum says "Kashmir wants to leave the Union" then to let Kashmir go.

    6. As far as who is paying the price for such political immaturity - everyone is in terms of lost potential. The expense in Kashmir is next to nothing for a trillion dollar economy. India can let it simmer for years to come. The real tragedy is, as always, that of the common people - both those Kashmiris who want to live happily no matter what political entity they live in and most of us 'Indians' who want to see them live so.

    I sincerely thank you again for letting me air my opinions.

    ReplyDelete
  39. Dear Brother Koshur, I am requesting you to paste this reply on your main page so that everyone sees my reply to Liberalmarathi as I believe it is important.....thanks in advance

    @ Liberalmarathi

    You are indeed a little clumsy with respect to your knowledge on Kashmir however you seem to be genuinely trying to understand so I will answer your queries one by one.

    “For that cooperation to happen, there are several conditions stated in the Plebiscite Resolution, the first of which is the requirement that all tribals and Pakistani soldiers must withdraw from the borders of the territory of J&K as they existed on 15th Aug 1947. Pakistan was simply not agreeable to this condition. Thus the cooperation requirement for a chapter VI resolution has failed right on the first condition. The plebiscite resolution is now completely un-enforceable”
    1) You are grotesquely wrong and once again misled by the patriotic Indian media which is ranked 120th amongst the 160 odd countries in the world vis a vis unbiased reporting and free press. Omar Abdullah has gone on record to say that it was actually India that refused to withdraw its forces when President Musharaf of Pakistan proposed in 2007 that Pakistan would move all its military out of Azad Kashmir (POK) if India does so too. Omar Abdullah said and I quote him “India slept over President Musharaf’s 4 point proposal” and continued with its rigid stance. Following is the link of the news story http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7591371.stm

    “Later with Pakistan joining SEATO and CENTO and Shimla Agreement in 1972 and later with the Lahore Agreement there is now no chance of enforcing the plebiscite resolution.”
    2) Tashkent Agreement and 1972 war, Simla Agreement and Siachen debacle, Lahore declaration and Kargil war……what stupidity are you talking of my friend. Our only guarantee is the international community and UN resolutions as only UN through UNMOGIP has maintained its mandate on Kashmir. Lahore Declarations have come and gone along-with Shimla and Tashkent agreements but only the UN mandate on Kashmir has stood the test of time. So your comment that plebiscite has no chance now simply does not make sense except if you are one of those staunch rigid Indians.

    “- secondly, your point about Nepal, Bhutan, Maldives, and Sri Lanka being independent, thereby making a case for a viable Kashmiri independence has some merit but again there are problems underneath the surface. Autonomy with Security is the key to all these states. Bhutan has a treaty with India that guarantees Bhutan's security in case of foreign aggresion (with only two neighbors it is not hard to imagine where the foreign aggression is going to come from). Nepal has a similar although somewhat weakly worded treaty with India which has been a source of irritant to Nepalese governments. Maldives has asked for and gotten help from Indian armed forces in case of coup attempts there. Sri Lanka does not have a 'protectorate' treaty with India but then with only one neighbor it doesn't need to worry about other aggressions. Nevertheless, IPKF forces were in SriLanka on the Lankan government's invitation (a big mistake, in my opinion, but that is another topic).”
    3) At least you have given Koshur some merit….thank God for that. Every country in the world has a treaty. If Mongolia (a land locked country) with Russia on one side and China on the other can survive, why can’t we, I mean if China can respect the Independence of Nepal/Bhutan/Burma/Thailand/Singapore/Korea what makes you think that it will not respect the independence of Kashmir. IN fact over the centuries it is India which has repeatedly attacked us and occupied us. To my knowledge China till date has never entered Kashmir and will not unless we need them to thwart any future attempts by Indians once we are Independent. And for your kind information if China is the aggressor that you are terming it to be then after the 1962 war when China miserably defeated the Indians, it could have taken over Bhutan/Nepal/Burma/Kashmir and India too…..who was there to stop it? As it perceived that India was the aggressor in Kashmir, it took Aksai-Chin for itself. The only way we can make China leave Aksai-Chin is if India leaves J&K as only then we can have a fool-proof case against China. Otherwise China will always say…If India can gobble a chunk, why can’t I.

    "The point is all these countries are small and they need security guarantees from their large neighbors in order to be independent. If they had to incur large armed forces expenditures to guard their borders then they would not be sustainable political entities. Kashmir's unique case (Art 370) bestows on Kashmir similar autonomy as Bhutan while guaranteeing Kashmir against foreign aggressions. It is up to Kashmiris to utilize this unique autonomy to their advantage. Kashmiris can go anywhere in India, buy land, set up businesses, while us 'Indians' cannot do the same in Kashmir. It is saddening then to hear a cry for 'freedom' while young officers and soldiers from Nagaland, and Chhatisgarh, and Tamil Nadu die in fighting Kashmir's wars on Kashmiri peaks.

    4) We never asked you to fight a war on our peaks. We have always wanted you to leave and stop the bloodshed of both Indians and Kashmiris. India has lost all trust amongst Kashmiris; it started when India failed to conduct a UN mediated referendum as promised by Pt. JN Nehru at the United Nations. Rest is nothing but rhetoric; article 370 is a sham….even the Indian constitution says its temporary and one big majority government run by BJP and article 370 will be history...very similar to what was done to our autonomy in 1953. Our politicians were bought and some were jailed, the autonomy legislation was scraped and our Prime Minister was replaced by a Chief Minister. My friend we simply don’t trust this hogwash anymore. Give us our right to self determination and get out of Kashmir as you are not wanted here.Many Indian Industrial powerhouses from Reliance to Jai Prakash hydropower (The firm making Dulhasti power project)are in Kashmir and doing business. As a Kashmiri I see nothing wrong in doing business with India and we want to be treated just like we would treat you i.e. as our good neighbours.

    “I respectfully maintain that Kashmir valley cannot support itself in isolation as an independent country without security guarantees from its large neighbors. Whether those guarantees will come from Pakistan or from India is what the valley people have to decide.”
    5) Just give us the green signal; we promise you, we will get security guarantees from even China. We don’t trust India as it has been dubious all along so no chance of trusting India on security but China has never in a millennia occupied us so we will entrust our security to them and of course UN will act as a mediator. East Timor’s security is similarly guaranteed by the UN and the charter is followed upon by the Australian Military.
    “- point about Kashmir not being 'integral' part of India. India itself as an 'integral' country has existed only since 1947. But that again is just scratching the surface. India as a concept and as a symbol has existed for a lot longer than that. Whether Kashmir was part of that concept of India is up for challenge. I would say based on Kashmir's early history, its early Hindu/Buddhist heritage (I am an irreligious person so please don't read religious frame of mind here), its linkages with territories now part of India, it is clear that Kashmir hasn't existed in isolation but has always been part of the idea of India. It is disingenuous for you to go back to the history of Kashmir only up to the point where you feel comfortable with it (400 years). Why stop there and not go back even further ? Can you say emphatically in that period of history that India (the concept) had no part to play in Kashmir ?”.
    6) You are right that India as of today has only existed since 1947 and even more right to admit that Indias Imperialistic designs have existed since the time of Chanakya. Religion is a secondary issue here. For your kind information Afghanistan/NWFP in Pakistan were all Hindus once upon a time followed by being Buddhists does that make these parts Indian? India as a concept in Kashmir right from the time of YUSUF SHAH CHAK has existed only as an Occupier. Whether it was the Mughals or the Sikhs or the Henchmen of the Sikhs (Read Dogras), Kashmiris always have regarded India as occupiers and nothing else. The Hindu rulers of Kashmir…. be it the great Lalitaditya or the powerful Avantiverman had nothing to do with India. In fact we fall on the silk route and majority of our trade routes and businesses were in Central Asia and the pseudo-geographical entity called India has done nothing but cut us off from all our ancient trade routes and way of life.

    “Whatever the history, we have to live in today's world. I will say this again respectfully, (1)kashmir's heritage (including its liberal sufi traditions) joins it in a larger concept of a liberal, secular India, (2) kashmir as an independent entity without security guarantees from one of its larger neighbors cannot survive, (3) it is in Kashmiris' interest to utilize their unique autonomy for progress. Give Peace a chance".

    7) Turkey alongwith many central Asian republics have a very vibrant Sufi tradition, does that make us a part of secular Turkey. And before you talk of a secular India, try to punish the perpetrators of Godhra, Mumbai riots and of course these days your secular goons are killing and raping Christians in Orissa. My dear friend, how can India be secular when a party like BJP is voted to power and rules India for 5 years after they have demolished a mosque (Babri Masjid) and killed plus maimed thousands of Muslims all over India. You can’t boast of secular credentials when you elect to power people like Modhi and Thackerays who burn Muslims and then roam scot free. Even his highness Pope Benedict XVI talks highly of your secular credentials as a nation (can't help a bit of a satire here). Muslims of India are the most backward community in this country according to Sachaar committee report and their living conditions are worse than the Dalits (Untouchables of Hindu caste). Who are you trying to fool my friend when liberal writers in your country like Arundhati Roy are publicly threatened for writing the truth….Is that LIBERTY or is liberty burning scores of churches in Orissa.

    8)Atleast Initiate the process of our Independence, we will get the guarantees required from the international community.

    9)Look who’s talking, Talk about hypocrisy….is it us who have lost a 100,000 of our brothers and sisters who don’t want to give peace a chance. C’mon my friend grow up…..we are the ones who have suffered the most and you make it sound like it’s us who are the impediment to peace, we gave you right from 1953 till 1989 to sort out our issues, we trusted you completely but alas! look what you did to us poor people. Yes you will give us peace but only on your terms and conditions and to any honorable race on earth what you are giving is both inhumane and demeaning and therefore not acceptable.
    We may be weak and frail right now but the flame of self determination will continue to burn in our hearts…no matter what obstacles or hurdles we may have to cross,we will achieve our right to self determination as promised by your Prime Minister at the UN.

    Thank you for your patience.

    "Jis Khaak ke zameer mein ho aatish-e-Chinaar, Mumkin nahin ke sard ho woh Khaake arjumand"

    ReplyDelete
  40. To a paranoid and delusional person, no amount of reasoning can bring relief.

    When Kashmiris say, as one has above, that one governor was trying "to change our religion" or that Indians are "from day One they are trying to change demography of Kashmir", they fit this perfectly paranoid category.

    This is because these Kashmiri say and believe such outrageous lies, and that in the name of these lies, they are on a mission of hartals and jihad.

    And if you read trashy jihad-championing papers such as Greater Kashmir, you will see a 100 such lies printed every day -- such as if a few toilets and other facilities are set up temporarily for 2 months in an area the size of a few football fields and at heights that are snow-bound and inaccessible for most of the year, then the Indians are doing in Kashmir the same as what Israel is doing in Palestine. That they are launching a demographic assault on the poor Kashmir muslims.

    How come these silly lies are never addressed at the so called "Azad Kashmir"? Do you think that the demography in Azad Kashmir today is the same as it was in October 1947 when Kashmir was "free"?

    How come the Buddhists in Kashmir do not say such lies, and they do not feel threatened that the Hindus are coming to swamp and outnumber them in their own homeland?

    I think I know the reason why these jihad-loving Kashmiri muslims believe such lies. Because these muslims feel guilty based on what the muslims rulers have done throughout history wherever the Islamic campaigns of conquest succeeded -- that the muslim rulers have always tried to change other people's religion, and they have always tried to change the local demography.

    And the Kashmiri muslims (as some muslims elsewhere) are afraid that what "muslims" have done to others, will now be done to them.

    And so they believe and propagate such outrageous lies.

    And that is why people like Geelani (like Jinnah did earlier) cry with pain that India is wicked because it is setting up sadabhavan schools in rural areas of Kashmir, where kids are asked to commit the most horrible crime of singing Vande Matram.

    There will be no solution to the Kashmir problem unless and until this mental disease, this paranoid mindset, the compulsive lying and delusions, are expunged from the minds of the majority of the people in the 30 miles by 90 miles area that is the Kashmir Valley.

    All these cries for "independence" etc. are just outward symptoms of a deeper malaise, and it will take no less than a few decades to fix and solve.

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  41. Dear Liberalmarathi,

    I would like to invite you to the Kashmir Forum where we may continue this interesting debate. You have raised some great points where it deserves a wider audience. The link is Kashmir Forum Hope I will see you there. I have already taken the liberty of posting our previous comments there. So just contnue with that.

    @chinaar. Please join the discussion there. I have already posted your comment there.

    Sincerely
    Koshur

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  42. Just last day I came to know about "brave" Indian soldiers who during curfew days first beat up people in Islamabad--South Kashmir and then opened their zips before the women folk.

    I tell you what, this harassment on women is much worse than the rape.

    Even in Handwara--north Kashmir-a local regional channel interviewed an old man. The major of the army posted in a camp there used to manhandle boys of the area and ask them about girls there.

    The old man while narrating this tale said the major has even threatened to kill all the villagers and take away their daughters.

    While watching, I was taken aback. Did they wanted to repeat manipur here.

    Such events aren't new--this has happened earlier too--umpteen times...

    And the human nature says that the girl's father, brother or relatives wont need your billions you spend as tax payers, they will simply need independence from the oppressor.

    Regards,
    www.umarblogs.blogspot.com

    ReplyDelete
  43. Since you have not done so yet, I trust that you will not post the response to this thread and this blog that I wrote under the identity of "Ragda".

    That little editorship/censorship just tells me just a little bit more about this blog.

    By the way, I am not a Kashmiri pandit. Far from it. The northern most that I have been in India is New Delhi. I am a Banglorean, a Kannada native, and I have spent my childhood growing up in other Indian states as well.

    I dare you to post what I wrote earlier under the identity of "Ragda". I picked up this identity after the slogans that are now being made during the marches in the Kashmir valley these days.

    You may choose to ignore my post, and you may not post it, but that will just tell me, and will say to other ordinary Indians (such as me, who have never been to Kashmir, and have not ever been close to being physically in Kashmir), that you are all an intolerant people who are hiding behind the noble sounding word of "freedom".

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  44. To above jr ------You are viewing us what we call birds (hawks) eye view –that is biased media, communal politicians and stories from those whom you feel oppressed –there can be no more tragedy than if you call us intolerant—Well we cannot help- it is here your intolerance speaks because you kept your religious and national bias above truth and you commented.

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  45. May Allah help kashmir peoples in freedom movement.

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  46. I think there is problem with Kashmiri people. They must have killed some Musmim Peer or Hindu sage who has cursed then to burn in hell fire. They cannot understand that indian government os so kind that it gives the money of Indian Hindu's tax payers money to Kashmiri muslims for Haj pilgrimage. Have you seen any other people in world with such sorrow?
    If Kashmiris are even a bit of self respect why cannot they reject Haj subsidy and cheap wheat, lentins, rice from India. Kashmiris will not because of their greed.

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  47. You are eating my tax money and blaming my country.

    Why can't to first start you freedom struggle against Pakistan and get PoK declared as a seperate country ?

    J&K will be a part of India for ever.

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  48. We want Freedom.
    Indian army killing our olders and woemen. Recenly indian troops rape 13 years old girl in my naughbor.
    We beleive at the end we Won.
    Inshallah our next generation live with Pakistan.

    Kashmir ki Azadi tak jang rahe gi, jang rahe gi
    india ki barbadi tak jang rahe gi, jang rahe gi

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  49. BUT WHY DO NOT ISLAM COMING TO KASHMIR BE CONSIDERED AS TAKING FREEDOM OF KASHMIRIS. WHY MUGHALS ARE BLAMED AND NOT ISLAM FOR TAKING THE FREEDOM OF KASHMIRIS.HOW COME HISTORY STARTS FROM 1586 AND NOT EARLIER. THE REASON IS SIMPLE, ACTUALLY IT IS ISLAM WHO HAVE ENSLAVED KASHMIRIS THROUGH SAYYIDS FROM ARAB LAND. IF THEIR IS REASONABLE ARGUMENT PUT BY KASHMIRI MUSLIM I WILL LISTEN BUT NOT THE BOGUS ARGUEMENT THAT MUGHALS WERE ACTUAL CONQUERORS OF KASHMIR.

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  50. The article by the blogger states that history of kashmiri colonization starts at 1586 probably because he too is suffering from "believer's complex", as decribed in ample detail by VS Naipaul in his two books on Islamic cultures.

    Actually the last so called ruler of Kashmir Yusuf Shah Chak was not of kashmiri origin. His was a decendent of Lanker Chak who came from Gilgit and entered the service of King Sahdev around 1310. King Sahdev should be effectively considered the last native ruler of kashmir. King Sahdev was deposed by a buddhist bhotia from ladhakh called Rinchin, who later converted to Islam. After Rinchin's death and small intermediate period in which Sahdev's brother udyan dev ruled, the kashmir throne was usurped by by another foreign adventurer, Shahmir of khorasan. The Shamiri dynasty can be called the first foreign dynasty of kashmir and ruled for ~200 years.
    Now the author doesn't consider khorasan natives as foreigners but considers indian mughals as so may in itself indicate that author is here is less interested in history, and more interested in projecting his political views. As far as I am concerned (and all historians would agree), Kashmir is physically and culturally part of indian subcontinent and not khorasan (medieval persian central-asian kingdom).

    Anyway, mughal forces under Raja Bhagwandas invaded and defeated the chak forces in 1586 and returned kashmir back to india central rule , where IMHO it rightfully belongs :-)

    - A Bhatta

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  51. History is not what one desires to be., It is the reality which can not be changed.
    Mr Bhattia,
    Khurasan was a Province of Muslim Califate of Baghdad. After Halaku Khan's invasion and Abbasyd Califates collape in 1258 Rulres of Khurasan migrated to India then to Kashmir. (read ''demise of caliphat'' by Reve Johnsten.)
    many Arab historian wrote on this subject too.
    Kashmir geographicall is not part of south asian subcontenant, it falls in central Asia. Just study geography Mr Bhattia rather then using bias agenda.

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  52. @ Anonymous
    u can plead,argue,question,protest,fight,support Pakis do whatever you want but the reality is you can't get freedom from India. No force in the world can take away Kashmir from India.

    My Comments on your comment Mr/Mrs hidden identity i mean Mr/Mrs Anonymous.

    I strongly believe you are a forced son or daughter of your mother.Your mother for sure must have Pleaded, argued, questioned, protested, fighted and took support of the bed not to let you out of her womb knowing the fact that she is going to give birth to the most stupid,idiot,arrogant,non sense and unwanted child, but unfortunately she failed and you were born which was against all her wishes. Same way no matter how much India will try to Stop us from demanding our basic BIRTH RIGHT, we will get it from them forcefully or peacefully and Insha Allah we will be free from the so called biggest democracy of the world (India)

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